Fairness? Or selfish?

I tried to stay off of this one but no way can I not .

Dr.Z thank you for you intellegent and accurate response .

MARRIAGE DOES NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO RAPE YOUR WIFE !

Plain and simple no gray areas its black and white . I am not talking about a spouse not wanting to put out . Having said that tho when a person says NO its no . The end .

Switchable Susie , what is the difference between two spouses playing out a S&M scene and one using a safe word ? Should the other spouse ignore the safe word because well its their spouse ?

Dont bother giving " excuses" because because there is none . What we should all teach our children is that no is no and thats it . If no is going to be ignored there are consequences, legal and otherwise .

. My husband is a fairly big guy , athletic , strong , works out , trained in martial arts and boxed for many years .

I did something that really pissed him off .He went into a rage , madder then I had ever seen him , first time in over our 20 yrs of knowing each other that I was truly frightened of him . He held me down , on my tummy , one hand around my throat , and forced himself on me . I first tried to struggle , him growling his anger at me, telling me I was his to do what he pleased . Then I just gave up , let him finish and I walked out of the room .

I was angry as hell , hurt ( mentally and physically, I had bruises) and most of all shocked . Thru it all I never uttered a word . I silently cried . I thought for a minute maybe I deserved it . Had I said would it have been rape ? Was is rape ? The next day when I came to my senses I knew he had NO right to do what he did . I told him if he ever did anything like that again he would never see the light of day .

@Bridgette I am so sorry you had to go through that. Obviously you were raped and although you couldn't stop it at least he knows now that he better never EVER do anything like that again!!

@SwitchableSusie Sorry, big disagreement here. Do you not believe you have autonomy over your own body?? That a legal certificate gives someone else the right to intimately violate you?? WTF?? And I just can't believe that if your daughter went on a date, went to the guys house, was happy to make out, but wanted to stop there.... and then he didn't and forced fucked her, you SERIOUSLY wouldn't want to go after him with a gun?!?!?!?!?! ANYONE hurts my kids and their mother will kill them and I'll bring them very week to visit her in prison... it's in our divorce agreement!

@SwitchableSusie :

I agree that spouses have an obligation to have sex in a marriage, to some extent. But that obligation doesn't mean he/she must be willing to have sex ANYTIME the other party wants it. Where there's a problem with imbalaced sexual desires amongst a couple, that should be handled with a therapist, or themselves if they can. Of course someone who doesn't feel like having sex should "take one for the team" sometimes, but they also should be able to say "no" sometimes and have that respected.

Not that it's particularly important, but the in the first case of marital rape, the Rideouts, he was acquitted. Subsequent cases have found husbands guilty.

But forcing oneself on another, with the other clearly objecting is rape. The marital relationship doesn't change the definition of rape and it shouldn't.

To be clear, I'm not talking about a woman who awakens in the morning and regrets the decision she made the night before, or made while drunk (and probably no drunker than the guy). I'm talking about a scene as bridgette describes or even one where the one party (let's say the husband) wasn't angry, but forced sex on his wife, clearly against her consent.

So sorry to read this, Bridgette. There are no excuses for this behavior and this kind of treatment by one human being to another human being. No emotion but anger should be considered and anger was the correct response.

Sorry pressed enter and then 2 more things popped into my head.

One is that Bridgette's story reiterates that rape is NOT about sex. It was a violent control thing. It's not that he was horny, he wanted to demonstrate his 'power' and control in the most demeaning way possible.

Maybe Susies point is about when one partner is horny and the other doesn't quite feel like it. They are ambivilant and maybe have to get up early the next day. So yes, they can 'take one for the team' to keep their partner happy. And that still counts as consent. While personally I wouldn't want that kind of sex; if my partner doesn't really want me then I lose all excitement and interest. But that is NOT rape,but real rape CAN happen no matter what piece of paperless aggressor has.

@DrZ: most cases of rape are difficult to prove and are largely "he said/she said" situations, which is why the rate for rape convictions is so low, and that protects the innocent. But the difficulty of proving a rape occured has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not rape is possible in a marriage.

I agree, false claims of rape are terrible and I'm always angered when the District Attorney chooses not to press charges against the one who made the false claim. I also think it's a travesty of justice that our last Vice President put in place lower standards for finding a student guilty of rape in universities.

I'm aware of a similar dynamic amongst male police officers. If the wife/gf discovers he's been cheating, the standard practice is to claim he assaulted her and obtain a TRO. This takes him out of the field, he loses his gun and he's put on desk duty. This is done just out of revenge and it's totally wrong.

This and the false claims of rape are totally unfair to the guy (along with the all too often claim of somone being "predatory," "a pervert," etc., which we see on forums all the time.

But none of this has to do with whether or not rape can occur in the context of marriage

@zika said

btw, he was just recently sentenced to 16 years in prison for raping two other women, neither of them his wife.

@DrZ said:

That isn't relevant to the other case

True, but interesting and no less relevant than the discussion of marital rape is to the OP, or to response 13, from which this discussion has emerged.

@bridgette : I'm so sorry that happened to you. Your description of it is chilling.

I can't imagine anyone defending that as not being rape.

But rape doesn't have to involve anger and that type of violence.

Come on guys, it's your husband.

JUST DO IT.

Marriage is a social contract. It does not guarantee, nor does it mean you can demand sex from your partner. I am horrified that anyone thinks otherwise. To give someone use of your body should be considered a gift to that person. Sex should be a shared experience. If you are horny, and your partner is not in the mood, then you can always masturbate. If your partner continues to withhold sex, then I suggest a talk is in order. I would have no problem telling my spouse that sex is an important part of an adult relationship. If they are not interested in having sex with me, then I am going to seek out someone that does. If they don't like that, they are welcome to consult a divorce attorney, and I will gladly sign on the dotted line.

Someone's body should never be taken under duress. Marriage does not give anyone the right to force sex on someone.

I'm a man, but I can promise you that if I were a woman and my spouse forced himself on me, I would beat him silly with a bat after he went to sleep. If I didn't kill him, I would let him know in no uncertain terms that that was the last time he would do that. I would then pack my bags and leave. I would be collecting a nice alimony.....

@zika said

most cases of rape are difficult to prove and are largely "he said/she said" situations, which is why the rate for rape convictions is so low, and that protects the innocent. But the difficulty of proving a rape occured has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not rape is possible in a marriage.

I agree, false claims of rape are terrible and I'm always angered when the District Attorney chooses not to press charges against the one who made the false claim. I also think it's a travesty of justice that our last Vice President put in place lower standards for finding a student guilty of rape in universities.

I'm well aware of the difficulty of handling rape allegations involving two people known to each other. It so often is one person's word against another. Withdrawn complaints and stories that don't add up are just two reasons why a high percentage of rape cases in the UK are discontinued at the investigation stage.

I wasn't suggesting my comments only applied to marriage or even cohabitation, but that was the area of discussion we were in.

I am aware of a toxic culture in many American universities, but I cannot make informed comments on that, the finer points of the American legal system, or how American police handle such cases. I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.

@bridgette - I was sorry to read what happened. That was a bad experience for you and his behaviour was completely unacceptable.

@DrZ said:

I wasn't suggesting my comments only applied to marriage or even cohabitation, but that was the area of discussion we were in.

Actually, the area of discussion we were in was specifically if a spouse could be charged with rape, not the difficulty of proving rape in general.

"@SwitchableSusie said

2 -- Her winning the case was a bad precedent to set for sex in marriage, that the wife can refuse to have sex with her husband and if he persists it's rape. RIDICULOUS."

It doesn't require a violent scene, as bridgette described, nor a "background of domestic violence or coercive behaviour," as you said, for a man to be guilty of raping his wife.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread; but, I will take exception to the general theme that one partner cannot make the decision for both not to have sex. I'm 71, my wife is 59, and she has apparently made that decision about 10 years ago. I had 4 way by-pass surgery in 2001. Our sex life took a definite downturn after that. Before the surgery, we had sex regularly and, to us at the time, with some adventurous kink involved. I was 56 and she was 44 at the time. After the surgery, we dropped to having sex about once/week as she expressed a true concern about sex and my heart health. I assured her all was fine; but, she always seemed concerned. Following surgery I began having ED problems for which I started taking Viagra. This was before any of the other products were on the market and the 30 - 45 minute response time after taking Viagra removed all spontaneity from sex and, in both our opinions, simply made sex a scheduled event that seemed to lose a lot of the fun.

In 2007 when I had a radical prostatectomy I lost all ability to achieve an erection - even with pills. Obviously I could no longer penetrate; but, I have continued wanting to perform oral sex on her and do whatever I could to satisfy her sexually in any way possible. We had sexual intimacy a total of 3 times in 2012, 2013 & 2014. Whenever I approached her I was always rebuffed. That's happened so often since 2001 I haven't approached her in over 4 years now and we've not been intimate in over 3 years. She's offered a variety of reasons for not getting intimate, none of which I particularly think are the real reason. I firmly believe she thinks she is unattractive because of her weight. She's 5'5" and 185 pounds. I'm 5'8" and 190 pounds. I'm not a Chip-N-Dale and she's not a beauty queen. So what?

Everything else in our lives is as great as can be. Would I ever consider divorce because she has lost her desire for sex? Absolutely not!!! We love each other fully and without reservation. I do what I can to help satisfy my sexual needs as best I can. I won't throw my solo enema practice and anal play at her as I believe it will make her feel quite badly, if not quite guilty. I'm pretty sure she knows I use anal toys - just not nearly to the degree I do. I'm certain she has no idea I take enemas. If she ever asked, I'd be 100% forthright. In the meantime, it is not unfair for her to have made this decision for the 2 of us. Would it be any less unfair if I told her she would be engaging in sex with me 2 or 3 times/week and to learn to live with it? I don't fully understand the dynamics of her silent decision; but, I accept it. In the meantime, I will continue doing what I do and hope some day we will enjoy an intimate relationship once again. If that never happens, so be it. I will always love her with every fiber of my being. Nothing will ever change that.

@zika said

Actually, the area of discussion we were in was specifically if a spouse could be charged with rape, not the difficulty of proving rape in general.

It doesn't require a violent scene, as bridgette described, nor a "background of domestic violence or coercive behaviour," as you said, for a man to be guilty of raping his wife.

You might want to read my earlier posts on this thread once again.

In particular, please note what I said here -

If there is a background of domestic violence or coercive behaviour then a rape charge might be perfectly valid and appropriate. The problem is that when the partners are well known to each other as in marriage, rape is a very difficult crime to obtain convictions for. In such situations it comes down to one person's word against the word of another, as only the two people present know what really happened.

We were indeed discussing the possibility of charging a spouse with rape - and following on from that, it was then entirely relevant for me to mention the difficulties with getting convictions in rape cases, which include any cases of rape within marriage.

Please also note that I did not mean to suggest that rape within a marriage could only occur in the background of domestic violence and coercion. The decision to pursue a case is based on the strength of the evidence, and as I previously stated, in rape cases this will often come down to the word of one person against another. Certainly in the UK, around 80% of cases will be discontinued during the investigation.

But let us get this back on track, which is to discuss whether it can be fair or selfish for one partner to shun the other sexually and not accept they are in that way incompatible.

@drz: I did read your earlier posts and in fact quoted them. The context of the conversation was whether or not a spouse could be charged with rape, as noted by Suzy's comments and citations. That is, does the marital relationship inherently disallow the concept of rape. The difficulty of obtaining a conviction has nothing to do with this question.

drz. said:

"If there is a background of domestic violence or coercive behaviour then a rape charge might be perfectly valid and appropriate."

and:

"I did not mean to suggest that rape within a marriage could only occur in the background of domestic violence and coercion."

I'm glad you clarified that. Your original comment implies otherwise.

@Anoldguy : From what I've heard, it's quite common for women to be afraid of having sex with their husband after a heart attack or heart surgery. Sometimes a conversation with the husband's cardiologist can allay those fears, sometimes not. There are also often groups where heart attack or cardiac surgery patients and their families discuss issues following their recent medical events The leaders of these groups will usually bring up the issue of sex, as most patients/spouses aren't likely to do so.

It's sad this occurred as such a relatively young age for both of you.

Your description of your relationship and love for one another is heartwarming and a good example of how people make painful sexual sacrifices for love.

@zika said

The context of the conversation was whether or not a spouse could be charged with rape, as noted by Suzy's comments and citations. That is, does the marital relationship inherently disallow the concept of rape. The difficulty of obtaining a conviction has nothing to do with this question.

I beg to differ - it has everything to do with it, as it is an important consideration. Since we know that the marital relationship does not disallow the concept of rape, we know it is therefore possible to bring charges. That question is actually settled, and it therefore makes sense to then consider the difficulties of bringing a case and how likely an actual prosecution and conviction actually are.

In the UK, a person is only charged with a crime when the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) has decided there is enough evidence for there to be a realistic prospect of a conviction and that bringing the case will be in the public interest. If the CPS prosecutor reviewing the evidence decides there isn't enough evidence or for some reason it wouldn't be in the public interest to proceed (or in the interests of the victim), the case will be discontinued.

I cannot comment with any authority on whether similar requirements exist in the US legal system. Perhaps you can enlighten us on that.

does the marital relationship inherently disallow the concept of rape.

It most certainly should!

Not beat them up black and blue, but "no" should not mean no.

If you can't have sex with your spouse, who can you have sex with???

@SwitchableSusie said

.... If you can't have sex with your spouse, who can you have sex with???

Taking this in a slightly different direction, there is also the question of a spouse refusing sexual activity soon after or immediately after the wedding. This is different from a partner losing interest a long time into the marriage. Instead, this is someone who married another person knowing they had no intention of maintaining a physical relationship once married.

Such a person clearly wants everything else about the lifestyle but doesn't want their partner to be a lover. They actually only want a room mate who brings in money. They might have used sex to entice the other person, but once the deal is sealed, sexual activity ceases. Not only is oral sex denied as the OP and another early poster mentioned, but all sexual activity is stopped.

This is both selfish and dishonest.

That's why MGTOW is gaining such a following.

Men are becoming aware of the wiles of women.

What took them so long?

Marriage CLEARLY has much greater benefits for the woman than the man during the marriage and after a divorce.

If I had sons, I would tell them DON'T GET MARRIED.

If you can't have sex with your spouse, who can you have sex with???

Why is this so complicated? You can have sex with ANY ADULT who CONSENTS to have sex with you!!! That's the list. End of story.

Being a wife should have implied consent.

Why is that so complicated?

YOU'RE MARRIED.

.

If I were single and planning to get married, I would have in a contract that sex would be required within a reasonable time period (stated in the contract) after the request was made.

If you're not going to have sex at a regular time interval DON'T GET MARRIED.

Why is this so complicated? You can have sex with ANY ADULT who CONSENTS to have sex with you!!! That's the list. End of story.

If only it were so simple.

Once married, when you have sex with anyone other than your legal spouse, that can be grounds for divorce, moreover a divorce that is financially skewed against the spouse having sex outside of marriage. This kind of divorce can be very complicated indeed, not to mention financially very disadvantageous.

If I were single and planning to get married, I would have in a contract that sex would be required within a reasonable time period (stated in the contract) after the request was made.

And it would then be necessary to stipulate the minimum numbers of times sex is obligatory and the maximum number of times that sex can be requested by each party. And then let's see how this is supposed to be verified if there is contention. Make a sex tape for each sex session? Fun, but not for everyone ... ha ha

Sorry it really IS THAT F*ING SIMPLE!!! You can't force someone to have sex with you! Ever!! What more basic human right do we have than autonomy over our own body?? You think some piece of paper should negate your own sense of owning your own body?! WTF?

So a totally vanilla married couple... he goes out in his wife beater tshirt, comes home drunk and belligerent and wants to fuck. She says no, he holds her down, ties her up, enters all 3 of her holes against her will. No punches or bruising though. "Shut up bitch, that's why I married ya!"

And thats all ok with you Susie?? Seriously? For your daughter?

The only thing I can agree on is if you aren't willing or interested in an ongoing sexual relationship, don't get married.

Sorry it really IS THAT F*ING SIMPLE!!! You can't force someone to have sex with you! Ever!! What more basic human right do we have than autonomy over our own body?? You think some piece of paper should negate your own sense of owning your own body?! WTF?

So a totally vanilla married couple... he goes out in his wife beater tshirt, comes home drunk and belligerent and wants to fuck. She says no, he holds her down, ties her up, enters all 3 of her holes against her will. No punches or bruising though. "Shut up bitch, that's why I married ya!"

And thats all ok with you Susie?? Seriously? For your daughter?

The only thing I can agree on is if you aren't willing or interested in an ongoing sexual relationship, don't get married.

You are making extreme specific conditions which are not typical.

We are talking about a wife who is completely capable of having sex but just won't, not one who is infirm or whose husband comes home drunk.

She should be required to have sex under any ordinary circumstance. Illness is not a ordinary circumstance. Sex can be deferred but not for extended periods of time when the wife is completely capable but just doesn't feel like it.

. . . . OR DON'T GET MARRIED.

If only 't were so simple.

Once married, when you have sex with anyone other than your legal spouse, that can be grounds for divorce, moreover a divorce that is financially skewed against the spouse having sex outside of marriage. This kind of divorce can be very complicated indeed, not to mention financially very disadvantageous.

It STILL is that simple! You can only have sex with a consenting adult partner. Done. Period.

Now if there are other complication due to your decision, then you deal with it. Within a marriage, get counseling to fix it, agree to other arrangements (open marriage) or get divorced. Lots of options that are way the fuck better than raping your spouse!

It STILL is that simple! You can only have sex with a consenting adult partner. Done. Period!

I agree 100%.

If I were single and planning to get married, I would have in a contract that sex would be required within a reasonable time period (stated in the contract) after the request was made.

Okay, whether you agree that spouses should always have sex (insert asterisks here, I'm not going into it) or not, a contract seems to me like a great way to make sex a chore. And I could give bunnies a run for their money.

You are making extreme specific conditions which are not typical.

We are talking about a wife who is completely capable of having sex but just won't, not one who is infirm or whose husband comes home drunk.

She should be required to have sex under any ordinary circumstance.

Who's to say what is more typical. I bet a drunk guy coming home and demanding sex from an uninterested wife is pretty common. Maybe just as much as a shrew of a wife withholding sex to be vindictive or using it to manipulate her husband.

And whats ordinary? You want the courts to decide whether he was too mean or drunk or he only held her down for a few minutes, so it was ok? It's hard enough now even with the rule of NO MEANS NO!

No document can nor should take away your unalienable rights... one of which is whether you want certain things stuck inside you!

... a contract seems to me like a great way to make sex a chore.

Agree, @Jr3 . We had the 'chore' when trying to conceive and it really took all (most) of the fun out of it. And I still can't get over how some people want to have sex with someone that DOESN'T want to have sex with them. It's one thing to work on getting someone in the mood with kissing, touching etc. but to go ahead and screw an uninterested dead starfish? How can any guy get hard for that?

I hate to tell all those who believe if you aren't going to have sex then don't get married what I am about to say. Things change for reasons we don't know or understand. My wife and I enjoyed a great sex life for 19 years. Then, we enjoyed a good sex life for another 6 years. Then we had a nominal sex life for 4 years and pretty much a nonexistent sex life for 6 years. Does anyone really think she knew in 1982, whether it is a bad self image, hormonal changes, or any other reason, that she wouldn't be interested in sex 25 years later? I struggle with this daily; but, divorce has never entered my mind.