Involuntarily committed to mental hospital

@Lynn said

I read something online about a social worker that told a patient, if you ever feel like talking, please stop by my office in the clinic, and I will make time for you. The patient according to the story had a full time job, that was very stressful, so one evening she stopped by the clinic, and sure enough the social worker, was there. Patient told her, that her position was very stressful and some days were really hard. All along she was supposedly assessing her. Then in a moment, she said stay right here, I will be right back. In just minutes she came back and said follow me, as a Dr. is here, the patient said she needed to go home and have supper, and the social worker replied just take a bit and talk to the Dr. She is waiting, so the social worker led her through a couple lock doors and into the awaiting Dr. office, she sat down and talked with the Dr. and she basically said the same as she told the social worker, very stressful at her work, but not suicidal. Then a nurse came in, and the Dr. told her he was admitting her. The patient was shocked, and argued that she needed to go home, and that she needed to be at work. Nothing doing, she was quickly admitted and sedated and her stay was indefinite

Do you think it was right for the shrink to LIE to her client?

That's why you can't trust them.

It is no one's right to stop anyone else from fulfilling their self imposed destiny.

Do you think it was right for the shrino to LIE to her client?

You can't trust them.

It is no one's right to stop anyone else from fulfilling their self imposed destiny.

I don't know how they can get away with forcing someone to receive treatment. That sounds like a lawsuit.

I don't know how they can get away with forcing someone to receive treatment. That sounds like a lawsuit.

Aside from that, who is going to pay for that person's hospital stay?

I certainly do not want to pay to keep someone alive against their will.

It's none of my business

Aside from that, who is going to pay for that person's hospital stay?

Sigh. NOBODY is going to. The days of involuntary admissions for indefinite periods of time ended a very long time ago. The original post saying "I read something online.." and the circumstances outlined tells me this was probably a work of fiction.

If you are not an immediate danger to yourself or somebody else YOU WILL NOT BE ADMITTED, never mind involuntarily. If you are in crisis, you may be admitted for a short stay, to the point where you are stable, then discharged.

I did psych rotations in med school and residency, and probably a quarter of my practice deals with psychiatry.

As far as FORCING someone to get treatment against their will, it takes two doctors and a judge, and even then it's rare. Two doctors can't just say you're crazy and then the judge rubber stamps it. "Psych court" was once a week during my residency rotation. It was far from being a rubber stamp on a doctor's order. Psych court when I was in medical school was at the court house, the average proceeding was over an hour long, and the burden of proof was quite high.

Doc

Sigh. NOBODY is going to. The days of involuntary admissions for indefinite periods of time ended a very long time ago. The original post saying "I read something online.." and the circumstances outlined tells me this was probably a work of fiction.

If you are not an immediate danger to yourself or somebody else YOU WILL NOT BE ADMITTED, never mind involuntarily. If you are in crisis, you may be admitted for a short stay, to the point where you are stable, then discharged.

I did psych rotations in med school and residency, and probably a quarter of my practice deals with psychiatry.

As far as FORCING someone to get treatment against their will, it takes two doctors and a judge, and even then it's rare. Two doctors can't just say you're crazy and then the judge rubber stamps it. "Psych court" was once a week during my residency rotation. It was far from being a rubber stamp on a doctor's order. Psych court when I was in medical school was at the court house, the average proceeding was over an hour long, and the burden of proof was quite high.

Doc

If someone was suicidal, is that always deemed "crazy" or insane? And why?

What if someone said they had suicidal thoughts, would they be involuntarily detained? So a good assumption is...most people would never admit it if they were. A person who seeks out help isn't really suicidal, they are seeking help. If they really wanted to do themselves in, they wouldn't tell anyone, correct?

So no one could ever admit that, right?

What is "in crisis"? Out of control? What is considered "stable"?

Humans are so complex. How can someone be considered "normal"? Is it like the Bell Curve with a lot of range in the middle?

Interesting stuff.

@sundaybrunch said

. . . . What if someone said they had suicidal thoughts, would they be involuntarily detained? So a good assumption is...most people would never admit it if they were. A person who seeks out help isn't really suicidal, they are seeking help. If they really wanted to do themselves in, they wouldn't tell anyone, correct? . . . .

or very likely is merely seeking attention.

.

Aside from that, who is going to pay for that person's hospital stay?

Sigh. NOBODY is going to.

I have this suspicion that MY TAXES are going to pay for the hospital stay.

or very likely is merely seeking attention.

Exactly. "If you don't do what I want, I will kill myself." It's extortion.

When I was a kid, one of our neighbors did it. Nicest person you'd ever want to meet. We found out later her family was stealing her money. We got up one day, and found out she drove to a bridge and jumped off.

I'm afraid of heights, so to me, going and looking down like that....my natural instinct is to get away from the edge. I always felt so bad for her. We found out later on that she had confided in the gardener. She was miserable because of her rotten family.

At the funeral, her niece, who she put through med school, said her aunt was "not right". I was a kid, and I knew what they were doing. Absolving themselves. (Yeah, we didn't do anything wrong.)

I know of a case which happened only about 8-10 years ago here in S Louisiana, to an ex girlfriend. This is her description as I recall. I was horrified that this could happen in the US still. When she told me the tale I was shocked. She worked as a perfume counter girl in a popular department store. She had lost her husband that year to sickness, however she went to work, every day she had to but was clearly suffering from grief. She confided with one of her 'friends' that she just didn't want to live anymore in private conversation. One morning she traveled across the Lake to the Store to work, she was at her counter that day when two uniformed deputies from the local sheriffs office walked in with one of the stores managers and stated she had to go with them. She was escorted out of the store, in handcuffs. Transported across the Lake to a Mental hospital, she was brought into the hospital ward, and told she was there because they were informed that she could be a danger to herself or others. With the deputies present she was taken to a room, forcibly stripped of all her clothing naked while they watched, by this time she was crying, and protesting the detention. She was searched and only given a gown, she said she screamed that the male deputies and other males had no right to see her naked. Eventually she was seen by a Dr, and interviewed, she was detained for another two days. She was finally released. Her job, was gone. I question that what this girl went through was not helpful in anyway to her well being or treatment for what I feel was depression brought on by grief. The action of the deputies is questionable, they should have given this woman privacy and not used it for titillating entertainment. She is an attractive girl. I feel her situation is completely awful.

I know of a case which happened only about 8-10 years ago here in S Louisiana, to an ex girlfriend. This is her description as I recall. I was horrified that this could happen in the US still. When she told me the tale I was shocked. .

If this were a true account, then the girl was essentially jailed/detained on gossip. Meaning that anyone could say the same thing about anyone else and that would result in detention? Without a court hearing, or medical evaluation?

Doesn't really sound believable - luckily I would say. Are you sure this isn't just another variation on an urban myth? Would make for a good story for a movie in any case.

If this were a true account, then the girl was essentially jailed/detained on gossip. Meaning that anyone could say the same thing about anyone else and that would result in detention? Without a court hearing, or medical evaluation?

Doesn't really sound believable - luckily I would say. Are you sure this isn't just another variation on an urban myth? Would make for a good story for a movie in any case.

Once child or adult protective services or psychiatrists get involved, you would be appalled at what can happen. It's not as far from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" as you might think.

Once child or adult protective services or psychiatrists get involved, you would be appalled at what can happen. It's not as far from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" as you might think.

The story still boils down to: a person said a co-worker told about thoughts of suicide. And that gets one thrown in jail/mental hospital? What about suing for false accusations? Why would police arrest someone on something that cannot be proven and that could so easily end up in civil court?

If the story is pre-WWII or thereabouts, it might be believable. But now? Sounds like anti-government paranoia transformed into urban mythology.

I assure you totally believable. Clearly she was detained under some mental health legislation that allows someone to be detained against their will if they are a threat to themselves or others. I do feel it was an over step of the law. I did a google search and found this:

2) ORDER FOR PROTECTIVE CUSTODY PROCESS (OPC)

LSA R.S. 28 §53.2. Order for custody; grounds; civil liability; criminal penalty

for making a false statement

A. Any parish coroner or judge of a court of competent jurisdiction may

order a person to be taken into protective custody and transported to a treatment

facility or the office of the coroner for immediate examination when a peace officer

or other credible person executes a statement under private signature specifying that,

to the best of his knowledge and belief, the person is mentally ill has a mental illness

or is suffering from substance abuse a substance-related or addictive disorder and is

in need of immediate treatment to protect the person or others from physical harm.

The statement may include the following information:

(1) A statement of facts, including the affiant's observations, leading to the

conclusion that the person is mentally ill has a mental illness or is suffering from

substance abuse a substance-related or addictive disorder and is dangerous to himself

or others or gravely disabled.

Wow. I don't know how they can project it that someone would do someone harm. If they had tried to hurt someone, then that's evidence.

People say things, "I'd like to kill you!!", but they don't always act on it. So it's hard to detain someone based on something they may have said. If we do this, someone could say you said blah blah, and you deny saying that, and yet you are detained. People can be easily set up.

So even if someone threatens someone, having a real motive needs to be there.

It's downright scary what these judges can do.

An interesting twist to this, is in the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" where the character "Dale Harding"

(played by my dear departed friend Billy Redfield) voluntarily commits himself because all friend and family are gone, an dhe reasons that THERE he will have a "life!".

This is somewhat humerous because it ended up being fine.

We had a friend of the family who was somewhat excitable and given to quick mood swings. He got excited about something and the next minute he was down. He even decided to run for mayor of the large city where he lived. Of course he had no qualifications at all, but he was determined. One afternoon he called my father and told him that" they"were coming to commit his wife for a mental inquest at the local health hospital. He didn't know what he should do and asked my father for some advice. My father told him to be calm and everything would work out. About an hour later he called and in a frantic voice exclaimed that it was him that they were coming to get. He spent several weeks in the hospital and after some therapy and medications he calmed down and had fewer mood swings. All ended up well but,we could laugh about his two entirely different phone calls.

The fact that some people end their lives by jumping in front of a train is not a context for smiley face icons.

It is extremely hard for the train drivers, they often end up unable to carry on with their job. For obvious reasons a person who has been hit and run over by a train is not a pretty sight, so it also leaves even the most hard-boiled policemen and rescue workers deeply shaken or even traumatized.

I totally agree with #36 @docinny45. In Austria the law only allows involuntary committal to a psychiatric ward when there is both the intention to kill yourself and a psychiatric disorder. The logic behind that makes sense - if you are sane and know what you are doing, your free will counts. If your decision making is not functioning normally, because you are intoxicated with drugs or alcohol, or you suffer from a mental disorder, then you are stopped from doing harm to yourself or others. Just one example: when the band Take That broke up in 1996, many teenage fans became hysterical and attempted suicide, some unfortunately succeeded. Others were saved because they were temporarily institutionalised, and they are certainly grateful now to be still alive. When I see someone who is both a minor and clearly in a state of temporary madness, it is my goddam duty to try stop them from jumping off a bridge. Anything else would be callous and irresponsible.

If someone is committed to a psychiatric ward against their will in Austria, they must be seen by a representative of the "Patientenanwaltschaft" ("patients' attorney", a kind of ombudsman) within 3 days max. After that they will only stay inside with a second external psychiatric opinion, a statement from the ombudsman, and a judge's ruling. "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" is a great movie, but pretty far from real life.

I can't stress this enough. Mental health workers use a one size fits all approach, and they don't know the difference between the real world, and what they've read in textbooks, and heard in college lectures. Mental health isn't an exact science. It is comprised of a group of arbitrary and whimsical theories and opinions. There is no such thing as a voluntary psychiatric admission. The staff will invent a reason to involuntarily commit you....and claim that it's in your best interest, and for your personal safety. I would agree that some patients need and benefit from medication, but it's a slippery slope. When it comes to any healthcare, you need to be an educated consumer. If you seek treatment, ask a lot of questions, and seek additional opinions. If your questions aren't answered to your satisfaction, move on. Having a psychiatric hospital commitment, is a very serious mark on your record, and likely could have been avoided through outpatient care, and proper selection of a therapist......of course, that's easier said than done.

I can't stress this enough. Mental health workers use a one size fits all approach, and they don't know the difference between the real world, and what they've read in textbooks, and heard in college lectures. Mental health isn't an exact science. It is comprised of a group of arbitrary and whimsical theories and opinions. There is no such thing as a voluntary psychiatric admission. The staff will invent a reason to involuntarily commit you....and claim that it's in your best interest, and for your personal safety. I would agree that some patients need and benefit from medication, but it's a slippery slope. When it comes to any healthcare, you need to be an educated consumer. If you seek treatment, ask a lot of questions, and seek additional opinions. If your questions aren't answered to your satisfaction, move on. Having a psychiatric hospital commitment, is a very serious mark on your record, and likely could have been avoided through outpatient care, and proper selection of a therapist......of course, that's easier said than done.

Like I have always said, you cannot trust them.

They can fuck up your life.

If you need to talk, talk to yourself in the mirror. The replies you get will have equal value.

# 53,54 - on what kind of facts and data do you base such generalisations?

Mental health workers use a one size fits all approach,

Really? Please provide proof for that statement. Psychotherapy for example consists of many individual 1-1 sessions. Compared to other treatments that's about as far from "one size fits all" as you can get.

and they don't know the difference between the real world, and what they've read in textbooks, and heard in college lectures.

"They" being all mental health workers world wide, of whom you know how many? Qualifying as a psychiatrist requires studying medicine, and then many years of actually working in the job. Your head maybe stuffed with textbook knowledge after medschool, but during those years of practical training you will get a major dose of real life. Psychotherapy requires either studying medicine or psychology, and then hundreds and hundreds of hours of practical training - group sessions, therapy sessions under supervision, peer feedback and reflection, etc.

It is comprised of a group of arbitrary and whimsical theories and opinions.

Er, no. It is based on well over one hundred years of world wide constant research and constant evaluation.

There is no such thing as a voluntary psychiatric admission.

Wrong. There are people who really suffer from their condition, and are more than happy to go to a place where they will find relief or healing. Apart from that, many wards in psychiatric hospitals are open anyway, and patients can walk out and go home at any time, should they choose to do so.

The staff will invent a reason to involuntarily commit you....

Nonsense. Why should they? In real life there is a shortage of beds in most psychiatric hospitals, and patients are far more likely to be turned away, even if they need treatment.

Having a psychiatric hospital commitment, is a very serious mark on your record

That is probably true. But it is hardly the fault of mental health workers. It is the fault of people like you, who stigmatize psychiatric medicine and psychotherapy.

Like I have always said, you cannot trust them.

Again - all of them, world-wide? In general? A bold statement, based on what?

If you need to talk, talk to yourself in the mirror. The replies you get will have equal value.

Just plain wrong. To name just one example, people who suffer from severe depression will get better when they seek out professional help. That's a proven fact. Those who do not seek help, and only "talk to themselves in the mirror", are the ones that have a high risk of committing suicide. So your "advice" here is downright dangerous.

You have your opinions and other people have theirs.

Your opinions are no better than anyone else's.

People with certain types of mental illness will improve with juditiously prescribed drugs.

The talking business is bullshit.

Others may be beyond help.

Someone very close to me once had what they called a "brief psychotic episode" and was committed for a short time. I got a real good look at what that life was like. I find it very hard to believe being in that kind of environment is on anyone's fetish list.

The psychotic episode was likely a side effect of having taken accutane for some time.

@ #56, 54, 53

These posts state certain things as facts, so the argument "my opinion-your opinion" falls short. I simply asked for evidence or at least comprehensible logical arguments upon which these assertions were made. Still waiting.

In any area of medicine there are cases that are beyond help. Surgeons will find cases that are inoperable. But does that prove that surgery is useless? Is it a fair enough expression of one's personal opinion to advise people with acute appendicitis not to bother seeing a surgeon, because "these are all quacks"?

"The talking business is bullshit" may be your opinion, but it is simultaneously a generalisation and a factual claim. To falsify that claim, there is a multitude of proper, data based scientific studies which show that psychotherapy as such is working. Just go to the Cochrane Library or do a search on pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Nothing to do with opinions.

My opinion is that people who go into counseling or psychology do so because they are trying to deal with their own issues and then buy into the bullshit. They are like colon hydrotherapists who honestly believe they are curing something with a treatment that has no basis in science. A Phd in underwater basket weaving is probably more of a benefit to the health industry! There are lots of websites that promote colon hydrotherapy, as well as sites that promote psychotherapy.

As a software architect I like to solve puzzles. For a couple of years now, I spend one day a week as a volunteer helping students with autism and/or failure anxiety. A surprising move? No, it's solving puzzles again, in real-time during a conversation. I use lots of little tricks to steer the conversation, induce behavior changes, and to change how students view themselves.

So no, it's not because of my own issues, it's a fun hobby for me that makes me feel good. So far, I have a 100% success rate on solving failure anxiety (too bad autism isn't solvable).

To me, as a computer scientist, psychology is a strange science. Students who learn psychology apparently first have to learn all the brain farts of all the old men in the early 1900s, even if what they said is already proven wrong.

Another thing my programmer brain cannot cope with: authors on psychology love to categorize things in ways that make no sense. They go like: 'there are brown dogs, yellow dogs, and dogs with a tail' That's not how categories work!

A couple of years ago, the dutch news was full of articles about psychology research drawing invalid conclusions from botched statistics. There's no excuse for that. Psychology seems to me a hard field to do research in - you run into ethical barriers all the time and it is very hard to control all the variables. We just don't know a lot.

Whenever I read up on a theory, there is also research (?) invalidating it.

Whenever I learn about coaching practices, I find out that it is one of many commercialized rival practices that are actually much the same.

Whenever I refer a student to ¨professional" help, it fails. The student drowns in bureaucracy and every professional does his/her little thing and no more. 4 months waiting, 3 talks and there is no more budget, please go back to start. The whole bureaucracy thing has more to do with how healthcare is financed in my country (it's been largely privatized).

So what is my conclusion from all of this? I just connect as a human being to another, and I try to help where desired. Do what works. The fact that all the rivaling coach clubs do practically the same thing is actually helpful: apparently there is a standard bag of tricks that works well in practice. And they work. So - using psychological frameworks and conversation techniques is helping me to help others, and that works in practice. Otherwise, it's not a hard science and I have trouble getting used to that.

Just because something is very complex and not a process of "if you press button A, then B happens", does not mean it isn't worth to be studied, or isn't scientific or academic. We still don't know what light is, and use a rather clumsy model of "kinda both particle and wave", nevertheless physics is science. We cannot replace any kind of doctor, but also politicians, judges, teachers with robots or computers. A part of their job indeed requires "machine compatible" knowledge and skills. Another, equally important, part requires reflection, intuition, flexibility, creativity, improvisation, empathy - soft skills that cannot be measured like you measure a length or a temperature. Still they are needed.

@rtenesup - congratulations on your succes with students who suffer from failure anxiety. Seriously. Fair play. An academic psychologist would look at what you do, analyze your methods how you steer conversations and induce behaviour changes. Not to create a universal formula, but to expand our knowledge and to help train others. Not to leave success to chance or individual talent, but to investigate it in a systematical way. I cannot see a methodological or scientific fault in that approach.

University students of psychology do indeed look at the work of the "old men from the 1900's". But only as much as a student of aeronautic engineering would look at the work of pioneers such as Otto Lilienthal or the brothers Wright. There has been an awful lot of research and new knowledge in the last 120 years, which is of course reflected in the syllabus. There are some hardcore Analysts who still think Sigmund Freud is the gold standard and who religiously stick to his every word. But that's the exception rather than the rule. From all I know psychology students are definitely taught a critical debate as to people like Freud, Jung, Adler etc.

Yes, botched statistics are unacceptable. But hardly a phenomenon that only happens in psychological research. There are black sheep everywhere. Ethical barriers can be a problem for researchers. Talk to people doing cancer treatment studies or genetic engineering. You wouldn't question their work in general, would you? Yes, there is still a lot we don't know. In all science as well as in psychology. But we have gained a lot of useful knowledge, too. Knowledge we wouldn't have gained had we remained at the level of "use your common sense and talk to a mate over a beer" - which may help in some cases, but not in others and won't create progress.

Don't forget: psychology as an academic discipline and methods such as psychotherapy started because there were people who suffered badly, were desperate for help, and pretty much left alone by the previously available treatments. Is it fair to deny all psychologists constructive motives, just because they work in a field where it is indeed not so easy to control all variables? Treating patients with manic depression, or severe personality disorders, to name just two examples, is a pain in the neck. It is really really tedious, often a frustrating process of one step forwards and two steps backwards. It takes a lot of patience, experience, and professionalism to be able to treat people successfully. But what sucks is those diseases, not the person treating them. Thank god we have people who do that.

And one last thing - you can't blame psychotherapy for bureaucratic and financial obstacles. A bricklayer who has done his back in after 35 years of hard physical labour will also face such obstacles when he tries to get early retirement or rehab.

If they really wanted to do themselves in, they wouldn't tell anyone, correct?

Not necessarily. My brother told a couple people, they didn't think he was serious so they didn't tell anyone. He did do it.j

Always take suicidal talk seriously. Better to raise a false alarm than ignore a real one.

Reality: I have had therapy for depression and other issues for years. Nine years ago things were dark. Depression can cause physical pain. I had this thought, while driving: I could kill myself if I run my car into that giant rock. So I did. The Mercedes is exceptionally well engineered for passenger protection in case of head on collisions. I admitted to the officer responding I tried to kill myself. My therapist came to the ER, and had me committed to a hospital she uses. The initial treatment was firm. Person in my condition doesn't know what he needs and may resist. Many suicidal persons just need a couple days, in a safe place, to pull out of the situation. She persuaded me to stay for 3 more weeks voluntarily.

The real help comes when deep issues are addressed and if the patient does the work. I had a lot of 'homework,' writing on topics. Sharing with and giving and receiving feedback in group therapy gives one insight. I received the space I needed in crisis and more tools to deal with issues, many of which still help years later.

What happened after? My accounting practice was put on hold. Clients were told I was ill in the hospital, and if they inquired, that I was depressed. I did not lose a single client as a result of the stay, and a few had comments such as 'I'm glad you're better.' Some empathized having had similar experiences with depression. I am a life long Mercedes driver.

For details of the experience "A Mental Hospital Experience" https://en.zity.biz/index.php?mx=forum;ox=display;topic=60809

If they really wanted to do themselves in, they wouldn't tell anyone, correct?

Not necessarily. My brother told a couple people, they didn't think he was serious so they didn't tell anyone. He did do it.j

Always take suicidal talk seriously. Better to raise a false alarm than ignore a real one.

I knew one person who had physical pains and problems and she talked about doing herself in when she finally had had enough. She talked about it for thirty years. Only a couple of us outside the immediate family were ever part of the discussion, but her immediate family knew perfectly well. During the first three months after her husband died, she took care of her financial concerns, wills and the like and then she performed suicide. She was 55.

I purposely said performed suicide because she didn't commit anything. She did exactly what she wanted, how she wanted to do it.

There is another person I know who has a family and children he talks about suicide with moderate frequency to me. This upsets his long term partner of about thirty years because she has told me that she doesn't want him to "leave" her because she is in her early 70's and fears she will be alone--and her family has many members in their 90's. She dearly loves this man.

In both cases no one is calling anybody to stop them because it is their life to do with as they desire.

I do miss my friend who performed suicide and I think about her often. She has been dead now (NOT passed away, but dead) for 11 years. Let's call it what it is and not try to sugar coat death.

I do miss my friend who performed suicide and I think about her often. She has been dead now (NOT passed away, but dead) for 11 years. Let's call it what it is and not try to sugar coat death.

I am so sorry about your friend. I miss my brother something fierce and wish the people he had told had told someone. It was very hard on my dad.

I agree with your last sentence. When I hear someone say "passed", I want to say "passed what? Go? Did they get $200?"

I am so sorry about your friend. I miss my brother something fierce and wish the people he had told had told someone. It was very hard on my dad.

I agree with your last sentence. When I hear someone say "passed", I want to say "passed what? Go? Did they get $200?"

I am very sorry for your losing your brother. Losing an immediate family member (sibling, child, spouse or parent) is a horrible situation. I truly believe telling someone "with authority" to do something to take away his freedom would have only made him more miserable. A person's life is their own--no one else's. Life is the most basic thing a person has, and forcing someone to continue living when that is not their volition is a crime and terrible sin.