Legal versus Illegal Medical Role Play

The world now a days is full of scam artists; undercover cops and freaks. With that said, when does medical role play go from being a non-sexual encounter to sexual? I am of the opinion that as long as the role play is consensual between the "doctor" and "patient" and there is nothing exchanged for doing an "exam" everything is cool! Thoughts and opinions from others would be appreciated.

I agree, as long as both are adults, nothing of value is exchanged for the "services" rendered, and no "professional" advice is given. As they say, "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!"

I'm not a lawyer, but I would tend to agree. Two people who meet online and conduct a "play exam" are no different than two people who meet on line and go on a date- the law should be the same.

In all aspects of what is termed consensual there is a risk of it going wrong.

Many, mainly playdocs, rely on a signature on a consent form or some other form of agreement of consensuality/understanding etc. They should note that this is next to valueless if there is a complaint of assault.

OK, it may go some way towards a defence to produce such a document but consider the situation in a purely sexual encounter, unrelated to medfet. What is acceptable and consensual one moment, might in a trice, become unacceptable! Even in a marital relationship, to force or even continue with an unwanted action will be considered assault or rape. How much more likely therefore is a complaint likely to be upheld in a relationship such as playdoc/patient who are otherwise strangers?

Of course, a good playdoc will sense if things are getting edgy and will call a halt before the patient does. Certainly the playdoc must STOP when that safe word is used.

But what about the situation when the playdoc does stop, either on request or on their own volition, but a complaint is still made? Well, they get to have to answer to it before a judge!

So, medfet activities, at whatever level, are fine and legal for as long as consensuality holds up. They are no longer legal when consent is withdrawn. But that does not cover the unthinkable!

The 'unthinkable' is when you both enjoy the play, no objections are made and indeed the play may be encouraged by the patient. Then the patient goes home and has a guilt attack - or relates the events to a partner. Yes! unthinkable isn't it?

There is no way a playdoc can 100% protect themselves from such a situation. You can go some way with the signature thing but, as above, its not foolproof even if the patient signs their real name, which isn't often! You can send a checklist of what is proposed and discuss the contents. I always insist on Q's and A's arising from that and keep the record. In IM chat I archive everything.

All of these things are helpful but NOTHING is foolproof. Use your gut instinct - be aware of temperaments and potential instability. If it doesn't seem right then don't do it - there will be another 'bus along shortly!

I don't think the matter of entrapment by the authorities is significant, at least in the UK. If the 'patient' complaining was to be a law enforcement officer and a record of conversations etc had been kept, then a prosecution would be unlikely to succeed or even take off. There are though the freaks and even potential blackmailers.

So when Protoc99 refers to consensual role play, when does consensual become non-consensual? Potentially at any moment and even retrospectively is the answer. And, erdoc, you'll see that 'what happens in Vegas' can rapidly become a headline in your local newspaper. vcr36056 - its true the same laws apply to dating but breaching them has the same consequences - so has not breaching them, but being accused of doing so! See my third paragraph.

Is it worth it? Yes of course it's damn well worth it. But playing safe is for both parties!

Well said BigK. I was going there but now I see that you've done it before me. Hip, hip, hooray!

I finally get to put my 2 cents in with the “grown-ups”! In a law class (I'm currently a dual Law/Med major and will continue to be if I survive!) the subject of Sexual Abuse Law, Prosecution, and Defense was covered. @DrK: You are 100% correct! The use of a consent form is becoming rather unromatically common for many sexual situations. The “standing” of the document will be based on how comprehensive it is. In other words in a med play context (or technically any other), everything, every touch, every procedure, every test, every act that involves the touching and, or penetration of any “intimate area” (Penis, vagina, buttocks rectum, breasts, inner thighs), the acceptance and, or performance of same must be clearly spelled out. Now, here's the irony. In order for the document (CONSENT TO PARTICIPATE AND RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND CULPABILITY) to have any possibility of annulment of any charges brought it must also, have a “kill clause” to have “teeth” for standing, and must include phrasing that “It is clearly understood that this consent may be withdrawn at any time by either party”. That's where the BIG problem comes in! If a seemingly “consensual” partner want to turn around post-facto (and pardon the use of the word!) “screw” you, it becomes nothing more than a game of “he said/she said” (no offense to gender preferences intended). Note that in some States and I would wager in the E.U. it is also considered “sexual assault/abuse” if you CAUSE someone to perform any such so-called “sexual acts” upon you also. i.e. “He made me give him an enema"! You could be the recipient of the ”procedures" and still get charged! Additionally, keep in mind the argument in this irony now becomes, “Did the act persist or stop once consent was verbally withdrawn. Did NO mean NO? Did STOP mean STOP”, and that's a hard one to prove. Statisically a jury will side with the complainant.

Two solutions that were offered for this are perfectly legal in many States. One, is to include in the document that an AUDIO recording will be made consensually of the session, with aliases used to protect the real identies. (although the document must bear legal names and signatures and of course state that both participants are over the age of 18 and offer their consent willingly, of their own volition, and fully understand the document and its purpose). The other, in some States “single party consent” exists to the recording of any conversation in which case such an AUDIO recording can be made without the prior consent of the other party. In such States it is considered a “private history” of the conversation or event and IS admissable.

In closing, it's not paranoia. While a true victim of a sexual assault should never be blamed for any of the events, historically over the past 10 years, frivilous complaints of sexual assault in the U.S. have increased 20 fold. Such cases have a defense degree as great as those that are not frivilous. It's really a shame that society has taken such a turn that a criminal charge is so often used as a weapon, threat, or pure vengeance. The “bottom” line? As much of the fludity and fun that such actions of protection may take away from a situation or blow it completely, if you are dealing with someone for the first time, it's a risk worth taking. For future adventures you have already established a pattern of consent and it is easier to defend. Additionally, you may include in the document that the document has standing for any future sessions which take place and all “terms and conditions remain standing without modification unless in writing”. So sad, really! And, yes! Check your State Law on recording of conversations and keep that cell phone nearby. There are some really good recording apps available, or a well placed AUDIO recording device will work nicely as well, and can be more reliable and more easily occulted.

@Brian19

In closing, it's not paranoia. …….

I mean seriously, not only signing legal forms, but making an audio cassette? Who would suggest such a course of action and who would go along with it as a partner? I would see it as a clear indication of a weird kind of perversion and be extremely wary of anyone suggesting such to me. And why not bring in a public notary to make the documents legally airtight?

@agracier With all due respect. First, paranoia is relative. Erik Erikson, a reknowned German-American Psychologist once said, “If you think the world is out to get you, you may not be paranoid, because it is!” So, it's a matter of choice. Me, personally, I know it is severe, but, we are discussing legal defense strategy and no offense intended, I would rather take my teachings from a rather reknowed, tenured Criminal Law Attorney/Professor with 30+ years under his belt than a layperson. I'm not suggesting that this should be done. I do understand the points you are making, and they have validity. But, my posting was a discussion on pure, proactive legal strategy, and NOT legal advice or counsel. Would I do such a thing in a relationship? Highly doubtful for two reasons. One, I barely have time to breathe much less have any time for “relationships” and two, I don't think I would ever cross the sexual bridge with anyone that I had even a gut feeling that would go paranoid, or seek revenge if anything ever blew up. I really think you're being a bit harsh as what I offered was just a reiteration of very well practiced and taught legal strategy and tried to help folks. As they say, “No good deed goes unpunished”. Appreciate the feedback, sir. (P.S. The documents would not need to be notorized. If you want to get technical and go to the real extreme, they would have to be accompanied by an Affidavit of Certification and THAT would have to be notorized, if you really want to take it to the extreme! I also find it ironic that you write above this being a perversion when most people would look at the forum in which you make the accusation as such.)

Brian's mature perspective continues to impress.

1970's boy.

@Brian19

It just strikes me as incredibly sad and depressing that such things are thought about and pondered upon, even in a relatively theoretical manner. Because it presupposes bad intent being a common and prevalent occurrence in interpersonal interactions.

I wonder what the legal strategy would be if I were to invite someone on a date, suggest a restaurant myself and then have my date fall ill because of spoiled/improperly cooked food (dramatically often call food poisoning)? Would I be open to charges of some kind because it was my initiative? Should I have gotten and obtained a legal waiver beforehand?

I grew up in the US in the 1950-60s and reading such things, I find it difficult to recognize the thought processes that now seem to be common. I generally don't care for any of that ‘golden age’ thinking, but seriously, I think people would have laughed themselves silly back then.

What might be considered to be legal in one country, could get you arrested, (or worse), in another. I can only speak for the U.S., since I was born and raised here. It was a felony to have anal sex in most, if not all, of the conservative, bible belt states, until recently, and this applied to consenting, married adults, too. In general, there are a few specific things that can get someone into legal trouble. Exchanging money for sex, non-consensual sex, unwelcomed touching, and sex with a minor, usually defined as someone under age 18, but to be safe, I would extend that to age 21. I became a legal adult in the 70's. A lot of what would not be acceptable today…i.e., freedom of speech, jokes that allude to sex, etc., was perfectly fine during that era. Many professional comedy acts got their start during that time. The world as a whole, has become more socially and politically restricted. False accusations, evil intent, and jealousy, are at an all time high. The sleazy lawyers are most happy to join the bad guys, and destroy an innocent person's reputation, and finances. Be careful out there, and use good judgement.

It is indeed saddening to contemplate that society is now much more prudish and controlled than ever before

To “…prudish and controlled” I would add LITIGEOUS!!!!

@agracier … I'm not here to argue and frankly your scenario is so extreme, it's ridiculous. Third party liability for a choice of restaurant?!?!?! I'm not here to argue principles of litagation with you or anyone else, But, I will say two things. One, you have a point that it is sad that society has come to this. Second, if you want a particular legal opinion on this matter for your jurisdiction, then I suggest you consult your attoney/barrister/solictor. If I were to add something else on a more personal note, it's perhaps arrogance and attacks like your's rather than a “thank you for your perspective and sharing” are what's turning those of us younger folks off to Zity. Maybe just something to process. And, I know you are a moderator and I fully anticipate some retribution for calling you out like that! (Just a footnote: I do find it interesting and very much appreciated that I am receiving a very large number of “likes” and appreciation for the posting in other posts!)

This is a discussion forum - differing opinions should be welcome, not restricted; nor should one be personally attacked for having a differing opinion. Only “attack” I saw was someone calling someone else “Arrogant and attacking” for simply expressing their opinion.

To “…prudish and controlled” I would add LITIGEOUS!!!!

It’s a good time to be an attorney …..

A very well respected Federal District Judge in the US once remarked that a few words on a coffee stained napkin, along with the required filing fee, are all that one needs to get into court today. It my be a sad state of affairs, but it is the world of today, not the world of 50+ years ago. This is not the place to debate the finer points of US law, which can differ from state-to-state. The message that I believe @Brian19 is trying to impart, is whatever we do contains a risk. Some actions are more risky than others. So, take whatever reasonable precautions you can. I would add, if you want a legal opinion, find a competent lawyer and follow his / her advice. The internet cannot be sued for any faulty advice you download and follow.

@srg_rik … What you say is ABSOLUTELY true!!! There is a very famous case of NJ vs. Hutchinson somewhere back in the 70s, where the guy was being held in pre-trial detention. Had no money in his commissary account to buy pen or paper and the County Jail refused to supply it. He borrowed a pencil, and wrote a Habeus Corpus pro se' on a roll of toilet paper and gave it to another inmate who was being transported to Court. It arrived successfully in the hands of a judge as it was marked LEGAL CORRESPONDENCE, so they didn't mess with it! The motion was granted!

@Brian19

And, I know you are a moderator and I fully anticipate some retribution for calling you out like that!

Ha ha ha … retribution?

Whatever in the world makes you think that? Why would you think I (or anyone) would take offensive at your posts and try and get back at you? That is really weird thinking.

And … if you are honest, expecting ‘retribution’ for a few well written posts is indicative of the very notion I was trying to point out: namely that people are really going too far with legal precautions and taking fright of potential litigation. Paranoia reigns.

And on the contrary. I appreciate your posts which are well-written and reasoned. It is mainly the premises that I find so dishearteningly sad.