Do you recall being circumcised when young ?

I firmly believe that 1) we humans tend to block out most intense pain from our memories, and 2) the lack of vocabulary also tends to diminish memory due to not having words to structure the scene.

As an adult, I had peritonitis secondary to pancreatitis. While my words allow me to characterize the experience, I don't remember the pain although I can give words to the experience.

Jds you never cease to amaze. Pancreatitis and peritonitis? Makes me itch to write for 150mg of Demerol or 4-6 mg of dilaudid.

It was a bad time in my mid 20s. Idiopathic pancreatitis damaged my islets and accelerated my diabetes. Now, all the calcification causes any new doctor to try to panic about pancreatic cancer. I tell them that it's been like that since the 1980s. If it was cancer, I'd be long gone.

Pancreatic Ca is one of the worst. The only prodrome is a nonspecific depression. When it's finally diagnosed the expected survival time is weeks to a few months at most.

I had a friend who died in January after surviving for a year. It wasn't pretty.

I was four at the time and must admit that I'm surprised I don't remember too much about it now. I recall being examined prior to going into hospital for the operation and being told after the examination that I needed a little snip. (My foreskin was tight and wouldn't retract) I didn't think too much of it but remember going into hospital and being confused and upset as to what I was doing in there and not particularly making any sort of connection as to what was going to happen. I think most people were in there for tonsils. I had a general and probably came out the following day. My mother liked to reminded me at various times in later years and usually in front of girlfriends / wife about how after I came out of hospital I used to like to show off the results. I don't particularly recall being that aware of being circumcised until I went to secondary school at 10 / 11 and probably about half of the class were circumcised. I know my mother felt fairly bad about the need for the op and took a lot of care to ensure my brother didn't need to be circumcised.

@lhac: How old were you? Did your mom try to retract it forcefully? I understood that my aunt, on doctor's orders, tried several times to forcibly retract my cousin's and it was very painful.

This enrages me, the foreskin of a young child is naturally attached to the glans. THIS IS NORMAL. It naturally releases as the child grows. Most children have a retractable foreskin by about 3, but not all. Some take additional years. 1-2% don't separate until late teens

People forcibly retracting a young child's foreskin is just plain child abuse. The fact that a doctor was involved is just malpractice. This is a symptom of a society that normalized genital mutilation, even the doctors don't learn (or care) about that portion of normal development. This is not the only case like this I know of. A friend had to remove the doctor's hands from her son's penis to avoid this.

Jds4med, in the case of my cousin and me this was about 35 years ago... The general practicioner and surgeon involved are now probably retired... or dead.

agracier: What do you think of this fight between three contradictory values in my mom's mind?

I wasn't suggesting action, I was just pointing out the general medical incompetence regarding the normal development of the human male. When you normalize a body modification, there's no reason to learn the truth.

jds4med, in the case of my cousin and me this was about 35 years ago... The general practicioner and surgeon involved are now probably retired... or dead.

agracier: What do you think of this fight between three contradictory values in my mom's mind?

Well, your mom is French I suppose and mine was Belgian, so there wasn't that much cultural difference as such. But for me a similar period would have been at least 50 years ago - which is so depressing as it's also half a century ... ha ha.

Anyway, I'm certain parents can hold any number of contradictory ideas and beliefs at once. The juggling parenting skill or something. My mother was a bit different though - hear no evil, see no evil and then you needn't speak at all, was her way of doing things. My father was away most of the year, on long trips to southeast Asia, Japan, Korea, wherever the navy chartered the vessel he was assigned to, so I guess she ended up evading lots of issues other parents might have confronted as a single front. Which was fine with me ... ha ha. I was more or left to my own devices, though I do remember when I was even younger, some things of a more intimate nature were often taken care of by an aunt (great aunt actually but I didn't understand the concept yet). She had a son about my age and we were sometimes taken care of together. It was a two birds with one stone affair and my mother then needn't confront anything of an intimate or sensitive nature.

I do remember that concerning circumcision, it was also my aunt who checked on me - though I wasn't much aware of what it was all about at the time. That particular aunt, and her lady household help, were actually very nice and friendly and when I was older, in my teens the aunt's household help made several hints and advances about helping me take a bath and other things (he he) that I didn't go in on, and which I am still sorry about not doing.

So I guess maybe I had a number of contradictory signals from elders too, but they were slightly different than yours.

"I do remember that concerning circumcision, it was also my aunt who checked on me"...

Agracier, I don't quite follow you. Do you mean your aunt diagnosed a phimosis and had you circumcised?

No, it was a complicated situation, which I learned about later, in my early teens. My father was American and as such was the believer in all purpose circumcision, no questions asked, no doubts. Just do it.

My mother was Belgian and thought it to be a religious thing and not appropriate for non Jews (this was long before any sizable Muslim population in Belgium). Besides, later in life she gave some hints about some of her childhood friends - Jewish teenagers - who were deported during the war (and never came back) and had no recourse against allegations of being Jewish because of their circumcisions. So for her being circumcised was a memory of a death sentence in a way. It took me a while to figure it out, but she still talked about those times even when very old. It must have been horrific knowing friends and acquaintances were being rounded up by fascists and racists and not being able to do anything about it. And scared you might be next, for whatever reason ...

Anyway, when I was born (in Belgium) my father was in Korea and I was left intact at the hospital. Apparently there was a big row about it when he came back a year or so later. So therefore it was a big thing to keep me clean and healthy down there, so there would be no need or any kind of excuse for a circumcision later. That's where my aunt pitched in, helping in checking me when I was older came in ... I suppose by the time I was 12/13 my mother didn't feel it proper to do so anymore. But that particular aunt and especially her (very nice) household help - well, they had no qualms at all about checking me out ... and they certainly did a good job of it as there was never any need for me to be circumcised. Even though up to my wedding day my father still wasn't reconciled to the idea ...

Ah! So that's a bit like my mother, who got so scared by what had happened to my cousin that she inspected me several times down there in the following years (not until 13, though; more like 10) and have me strict orders to wash every night with the foreskin fully pulled out.

When my American mother in law noticed our son was not circumcised during diaper change, she was puzzled. "Isn't it cleaner and healthier that way? We do it this way in America, so it must be better!", to summarize.

Sorry to be intrusive, but what did the aunt and household help do?

Sorry to be intrusive, but what did the aunt and household help do?

Give baths, give suppositories (often on general principle I think) check that genitals were clean ... my aunt also had a son almost my age and we had these things done together. I also vaguely remember going for doctor's visits, maybe for vaccinations or maybe for check-ups also with aunt and cousin ...

I am circumcised and it must have been done when I was an infant because I don't remember anything. As much as I was afraid of the doctor and needles when little, I would have remembered it. I am OK with it. You don't really miss something you never had!

Coronet, when I was a teenager I talked about this with my cousin (operated around age 6 or 7 I think). He just remembers being taken to the hospital, seeing his penis coming back in gauze, his surprise at seeing his glans, and then seeing the general practicioner for stitches. He has no remembrance of his penis before surgery.

Hi, yes I remember my circumcision. I had to have it done after school physical due to a tight foreskin.

I remember coming home from school a few months after my physical and my mum saying that I'd be going to hospital next week during the school holidays for an operation. I was a bit scared but nothing explained, I guessed it was to do with 'down there' as it had a bit of attention during my physical, the female doctor kept trying to retract fire skin and was telling my mum to try at bath times, I remember her trying once, stood behind me and trying to pull it back. Then the family GP examining me and saying to my mum 'he really should be circumcised'. Anyway...got to hospital and got changed, a doctor came round and checked to make sure what it was I was in for. I recall there was another lad in the ward who was in for the same op. The next day I was told I'd not be allowed any food at tea time as I'll be having an operation in the morning. I sat on my bed while the other 5 or 6 kids ate. I watched some cartoons on TV with another kid and the main (old, scary) nurse asked me if I wanted to go with her so she could explain what was going to happen to my 'willie'. I never went but wish I had. That night I lay in the darkness, the others asleep, I remember looking down the end of the ward to a nurse sat at a desk with an angle poise lamp on. I woke up the next morning and a nurse took me down to have a bath, she got me to undress while she ran the water. Once I was in she told me she'd be back in five minutes, I quickly washed, got out and dried off and back into pyjamas.

About lunchtime, I was wheeled down to the OR, the gown I was wearing opened and iodine put on me while the mask was put on me, I was asked to count to ten but never got that far. I woke up a few hours later and was very aware of a pain in my groin. I lifted the blanket up and saw a white paper square covering my penis, I gently pulled it off and saw for the first time my glans, a bit bloody and bruised, there were a couple of yellow looking stitches and I can still remember the smell.

i was chatting to a female friend a few years ago and told her I was cut, she'd never seen one (this is the UK). She then started dating a guy and wasn't sure if he was cut as his foreskin wasn't very long. I offered to show her mine for comparison, once she stopped laughing she said no. I did end up showing her a photo and she took a long look at it.

Anyway, that's it, hope it wasn't too long.

Regards

The foregoing is why circumcisions should be done at birth. It's such a minor procedure for both us and the patient then. I'm afraid I just don't find credible the explanations I hear about why not to do them.

Because, believe it or not, you (doctors) don't know more than Darwin (mother nature) when it comes to why natural selection caused us to be this way.

Amputation of a newborn's little finger would be a simple procedure. Would that be okay if some major religion mandated it?

The reasons for the American practice of circumcision have nothing to do with religion. Luckily one might say, but, and this is ironic, the practice is defended with the same emotional intensity as religious people defend their beliefs. Factual or intellectual counter-arguments just don't seem to make an impression.

I think that the most common reason is aesthetic. People who are rarely if ever exposed to an intact penis find it different and therefore unappealing. IMO, the medical community is, for the most part, rationalizing this choice.

Jds I admire you BUT remember it's always the parents choice. I don't forge any signature on any op permit. For whatever reason it's a matter of style. As for arguing with Darwin, how about shaving your pubic hair and defeating it's function as a trap for pheromones?

That's just style too I think. Also, do you think being uncircumcised confers any evolutionary advantage which we're subverting?

I think that the most common reason is aesthetic. .

Maybe, but what i wonder do they think if they ever look at classical art? Paintings and sculptures are rife with uncut penises, from Antiquity to the Renaissance and beyond in museums, public spaces and even churches ... I'm trying to think of examples otherwise and come up blank ...

Anyway, I think it goes beyond simple esthetics, there is an existential intensity to the argumentation.

how about shaving your pubic hair

As for the pubic hair argument: pubic and facial and head hair all grows back, always. And cutting it is painless and inflicts no permanent change, not even any blood loss. Anyone can safely cut hair, though there is a skill required for it to look good ... 😃

There's a HUGE difference between an adult undergoing a consensual cosmetic procedure and altering a child with no valid reason.

First, do no harm. If non-medical circumcision is to be done, let the religious experts do it.

I ask again and would truly like to know. What evolutionary advantage does circumcision subvert? Also have those who decry circumcision actually seen one? It's five minutes work and the infant falls asleep again. Not much worse than a blood draw.

I was circumcised. Don't recall it happening. Glad it did tho. So's my wife

Thank you for getting the thread back on track, rayme. If anyone wants to debate the appropriateness of and reasons for circumcision yet again, please start another thread for it.

Okay, I am circumcised too. I don't remember anything about it. I'm glad though I'm not an anteater. No offense!

I ask again and would truly like to know. What evolutionary advantage does circumcision subvert? Also have those who decry circumcision actually seen one? It's five minutes work and the infant falls asleep again. Not much worse than a blood draw.

I don't know, but I'm not about to second guess natural selection.