Self-righteous anger and outrage on Reddit regarding some medical and athletic situations

On several discussion forums on Reddit , I've mentioned the group military physicals, group school sports physicals, and nude male swimming traditions of decades past. Almost immediately, some of Reddit's younger and more "progressive" users started going on-and-on about how awful those must have been- comparing them to slave auctions, cattle drives, and prison camps. Calling them cruel, dehumanizing, and a pervert's paradise- stuff like that. The anger and outrage these people felt over an era they never even lived in were mind-blowing.

Even when I mentioned that most of the folks who lived through that era never considered it that big a deal, and that many of the males actually enjoyed the female attention, many of these Redditors still labeled them as "victims", and still wanted to be angry and outraged for them on their behalf.

Reddit is... interesting sometimes.

The social trend is that almost everyone seems to want to be a victim and see oppression and exploitation in almost every situation they encounter. Or else they are outraged by what are usually exaggerated, inaccurate and slanted historical retellings.

Since many of the things you describe have to do with nudity, I am going to surmise the outrage is for a great deal fueled by religious conservatism and fanaticism of the good old Puritan and Fundamentalist kind. For such belief systems, nudity equals sexuality because, hey, what's on a man's mind?

Western society seems to have evolved into a society of thinking uncharitably about just about anything. No matter what is being discussed, too many people instinctively and without thinking, put a negative, uncharitable spin on it.

@agracier

The social trend is that almost everyone seems to want to be a victim and see oppression and exploitation in almost every situation they encounter.

That part is true. Just look at what is happening on our nation's college campuses at this very moment.

Since many of the things you describe have to do with nudity, I am going to surmise the outrage is for a great deal fueled by religious conservatism and fanaticism of the good old Puritan and Fundamentalist kind. For such belief systems, nudity equals sexuality

So I have addressed this anti religion and specifically anti Christian bias before. A major American athletic organization promoted nude swimming at least through the 1960s, some into the 1970s. That organization is the YMCA and the C stands for Christian. Second point is that religion is far less a factor in American life, and certainly in European life, than it was let's say 60 years ago (I am choosing that range because it brings me back to my early years). When people WERE going to church we had nude swimming at the YMCA, mandatory showers in open, communal shower rooms in schools and other athletic facilities. Skinny dipping was not an unheard of activity. Families were much less private back then as families were larger and homes were smaller. As anyone who has searched the housing market will attest most older homes had 3 bedrooms with one single bathroom, siblings shared rooms, sometimes three to a room, and everyone piled into that one bathroom. In general, a healthier attitude existed about nudity.

I attended religious schools from grades 1-8 and nothing ever was mentioned about same sex nudity being improper. I was affiliated with a large parish which built a comprehensive parish center with recreation facilities and meeting and entertainment facilities (a professional kitchen). It also had locker rooms and open communal showers for the teams using the gymnasium.

Fast forward as church attendance dropped over the years if your theory is correct then we should see an INCREASE in the use of nude friendly facilities, but the INVERSE is true. You need to learn that in statistical and quantitative research CAUSATION is not CORRELATION.

Now I claim no knowledge of parental attitudes in your part of the world but here in the USA there was a major shift and influence of parental options for their kids. If I or any of my classmates had come home from school and told our parents that our big bad schools were making us take showers after getting sweaty in PE and sports our dads would have said "grow up and be a man and take a shower so you don't stink all day". In more recent times parents have coddled their precious spoiled brats and complained at school board meetings and even filed lawsuits forcing schools to eliminate mandatory showers.

I will never forget when a mother of a high school athlete that I knew, whose mother herself had been a collegiate swimming, was boasting to a group of her female friends that her parting words to her son as he headed off to a summer sports camp were, "Don't let anyone see you naked" !!!!!

You seem to be conflating INTERSEX nudity with SAME SEX nudity, the latter which religious organizations had no issue with. Just read the Bible and see how often men were nude with other men.

So I have addressed this anti religion and specifically anti Christian bias before.

Not only does society change, but religions change too, even though they all profess to claim eternal truths ... ha ha. And some religions have increased in influence, while others have not.

As with many things at present, it seems the extreme manifestation of rejecting many aspects of society are growing. This includes religion too. Many just would/could not accept the changes happening to society since the 1960s and have reacted by becoming more and rejecting and outraged over what they see as detrimental social change.

Their attitudes harden, especially when things simply not discussed 50 years ago, are (to them) suddenly acceptable topics of discussion and lifestyle.

And I won't even begin about other religions, where attitudes have changed even more dramatically in the same time frame.

Fast forward as church attendance dropped over the years if your theory is correct

When social groups/religions that were previously top dogs so to speak, begin to loose importance, they often become more radical in their thinking and will do more to cling on to their social power, espousing more radical ideas and going 'back to basics' and all that kind of stuff and become more strict in their interpretation of how society should be organized.

As with many things at present, it seems the extreme manifestation of rejecting many aspects of society are growing. This includes religion too. Many just would/could not accept the changes happening to society since the 1960s and have reacted by becoming more and rejecting and outraged over what they see as detrimental social change.

As Ronald Reagan would say, there you go again.

You keep dumping this crap about religions causing the lack of acceptance of nudity and other such things but you produce NO EVIDENCE of that. Not a single study to support your hatred of Christianity.

So I will try to make what is crystal clear even more clear: When church attendance was high nudity was much more accepted in appropriate settings (doctor's offices, locker rooms, showers, even swimming pools). Now that church attendance has declined significantly we have people, especially the young ones, afraid to be seen even in their underwear, let alone nude, let alone showering with 20 other guys.

So your theory is blasted out of the water.

On several discussion forums on Reddit , I've mentioned the group military physicals, group school sports physicals, and nude male swimming traditions of decades past. Almost immediately, some of Reddit's younger and more "progressive" users started going on-and-on about how awful those must have been- comparing them to slave auctions, cattle drives, and prison camps. Calling them cruel, dehumanizing, and a pervert's paradise- stuff like that. The anger and outrage these people felt over an era they never even lived in were mind-blowing.

That's because their parents have turned their boys especially into a bunch of sniveling pussies. Just look at what is going on on college campuses today.

nudity was much more accepted in appropriate settings (doctor's offices, locker rooms, showers, even swimming pools).

I know about the above as I too experienced it all when young in the 1950s-60s.

I would say these practices were also a result of the 20th century world wars, when necessities became virtues and unavoidable due to the vast structural changes that resulted from societies being organized for war. There was less time for social niceties such as being reluctant about nudity, as for instance was the case in the preceding Victorian/Edwardian Age.

Even after WWII most nations still conscripted civilians for military service and in the military there is certainly no time for shame or reluctance about being nude. Since all men were expected to sooner or later serve in the military, it was somewhat standardized to getting young males and boys accustomed to what would later become normal: lack of personal privacy.

Now in the US or most Western nations, there is no mandatory military service, hence no expectation that most men would serve and be subjected to military indignities. So when the young generation of our present times hears about such things, they are flabbergasted and as is usual when hearing stories from their elders, don't believe them all that much and think we are exaggerating.

@agracier Now we can agree !

Even before the wars, at least here in the USA, but I suspect Europe, too, privacy was just not afforded to someone unless they were among the very rich. My grandfather spent the first few years of his life living in the coal mining region of West Virginia and they had no indoor plumbing. This would have been in the first years of the 20th century. The toilet was an outhouse back in the yard. In the cold winters one used a chamber pot if one needed a toilet at night. There was no shower - one bathed in the bathtub which was in the kitchen. Zero privacy. Oh, did I mention 13 children in that family ?

My father's situation was a little better in that they did have indoor plumbing but his family of 10 shared one bathroom and he shared a room with his three brothers.

And as I think I mentioned somewhere on here I have been looking at homes because I hope to move someday and many homes built in the 1940s-1960s would have only one full bathroom that the entire family would use. More upscale homes would have a half bath (toilet and sink) in addition to the communal full bath on the bedroom level.

There is much more expectation of privacy as exemplified in modern housing. Families are notably smaller but the homes are notably larger. One family that I know built what commonly is called a "MacMansion", a very large home in a housing community, and their home had five bedrooms EACH with its OWN bathroom ! And they only had two children. Children growing up in those homes have a complete and total expectation of privacy having never had to share anything.

I could go on with college (past and contemporary) and boarding school experiences. but I will stop for now.

I myself favor intersex nudity over strictly same-sex nudity. Mainland Europeans, as well as tribal native communities all over the world, have used this approach for generations with few or no problems. Making the two genders a taboo and mystery to each other is an archaic and backwards approach that ultimately does both young people and society more harm than good.

I myself favor intersex nudity over strictly same-sex nudity. Mainland Europeans, as well as tribal native communities all over the world, have used this approach for generations with few or no problems. Making the two genders a taboo and mystery to each other is an archaic and backwards approach that ultimately does both young people and society more harm than good.

I wish I could say this is true about Belgium, where I grew up from 1963 onwards, but I fear the opposite is more correct. Most schools were segregated by sex, boys only, girls only schools and that does little to help much with even basic interactions of any kind.

It is true that on other levels, say on the subjects of museum art, public statuary, depictions in movies or photos, in Europe standards on such nudity were very liberal, no one giving a fig about seeing Michelangelo's 'David's' naked prick on display in Florence or elsewhere. But when it came to actual physical interaction that included nudity of real people, I'd say that notions of propriety were very strictly enforced.

And even then. Back in the 70's issues of Playboy were being sold with black markers over nipples and crotches, there was no topless bathing in public. When I told my new classmates about nude swimming at the Y back in the States none of them believed me. They thought I was exaggerating. Some still do when the subject occasionally comes up.

Now experiences might differ by country. But I certainly experienced more prudish surroundings and circumstances than many did in the US.

I’m in my late 60’s, and today’s America is entirely unrecognizable culturally, compared to even 20-30 years ago. When I started college in the early 70’s, I lived in a coed dorm, which was considered to be socially progressive at the time. It was also the era that I first traveled to Western Europe, and was pleasantly surprised to find that nudity between the sexes wasn’t a big deal, with a couple of places being the exception. I have no doubt that today’s younger adults have actually become divided over a moral dilemma, which was largely removed by my generation. Childish attacks are the norm, on social media, and as a general rule.

I had a longer comment and zapped it.

I am 41 and don't fit into the new thing." The times they are a changin"

To quote Arlo Guthrie. Just sit back and watch things roll. It is not our world

anymore.

To quote Arlo Guthrie. Just sit back and watch things roll. It is not our world

The thing is, you can't just sit back and watch things roll.

What really happens is that things and events and changes roll right over you and flatten you like a pancake.

Reddit is... interesting sometimes.

You can damn sure say that again. Ive been a regular user for 4-5 years. Love it. Love the varied videos, discussions, etc., etc.. But there are some of the worst, most negative, annoying, disgusting folks, the world over that also frequent Reddit. The anti-America crowd is strong there. Many of them Americans themselves. Indoctrinated at school, I suppose. Parents that don't have a spine or an understanding of America to correct them. It is amazing what you can see there. Good and bad. Interesting for sure.

You keep dumping this crap about religions causing the lack of acceptance of nudity and other such things but you produce NO EVIDENCE of that. Not a single study to support your hatred of Christianity.

i haven't seen "a single study" cited or linked presenting evidence to support either side of that exchange.

i don't have one to cite either lol, but in my journey and experience, i don't see religion as generically good or bad, that it depends on the mindset and approach of the adherents.

When reading the autobiography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali ("Infidel") i was struck by the similarities of her Muslim upbringing to my Christian upbringing. The thing i found in common was the fundamentalist approach. Tara Westover's autobiography "Educated" seems a similar tome to me, a Christian version showing the same type of mindset, approach. i've also encountered what seems to me as fundamentalist atheists. The common thread i find is the idea that one possesses absolute knowledge, "truth," and is no longer open to debate, no longer can admit: "I may be wrong."

Reddit has been hijacked by people using it to spread and maintain politically correct thinking and likewise fake information among the young part of the population. When factual information that is not politically correct emerge, the moderators block and delete, or sanitizers get into action.

Reddit has been hijacked by people using it to spread and maintain politically correct thinking and likewise fake information among the young part of the population. When factual information that is not politically correct emerge, the moderators block and delete, or sanitizers get into action.

That’s true on a lot of social media platforms.

i don't have one to cite either lol, but in my journey and experience, i don't see religion as generically good or bad, that it depends on the mindset and approach of the adherents.

There isn't just one religion, but literally thousands of different variants. 4000 to 10 000 is given when you do a web search, but whatever the number is, there are a lot.

And each espouses different sets of beliefs and each evolves according to social circumstances and events in history. In one era, a particular religion might espouse asceticism and a retreat from the physical world and pleasure, and can then morph into a warlike religion trying to spread by the sword and the imposition of violence and forced conversion or just as well turn into social reformers or social conservatives.

And depending on which era we are talking about, one religion may be ascendent and then loose importance in a later era or the other way around.

When I was young for instance, people would write about the supposed sensuousness of harems and oriental sexuality and the Thousand and One Nights and all that, but that mental image has now morphed into something completely different.

Things change.

The thing is, you can't just sit back and watch things roll.

What really happens is that things and events and changes roll right over you and flatten you like a pancake.

That is true and it does. It happens all the time. Things change and there is not a dam thing that can be done to stop that.

It's called progress and social evolution. We don't have to like it. Just live with it temporarily. I chose to just say "meh" adapt where necessary and go on with things that I enjoy.

I watch the show from the bleachers. I like to say "We are living in history" A lot of things that are going on now will be in the history books or whatever passes for books in 2124.

That is true and it does. It happens all the time. Things change and there is not a dam thing that can be done to stop that.

It's called progress and social evolution. We don't have to like it. Just live with it temporarily. I chose to just say "meh" adapt where necessary and go on with things that I enjoy.

and watch the show from the bleachers. I like to say "We are living in history" A lot of things that are going on now will be in the history books or whatever passes for books in 2124.

Thank you for this comment !! - and yes, it is also my opinion !! - time goes by, sooner as we will allowed this trueness !!

But the things, that have changed, are not have changed in better ways, more in the other direction !!

By your actually age - 41 -, it was in my life the year of 1997, there we lived in a better world - maybe a special sight of my person, but i can also remember of these times, without Internet, and also with telephones, that were not wireless, and the news around the world, were not transported in a few minutes !!

Maybe an obsolete sight of mine, but these days are not the bad ones !!

And also yes, in a couple of years, the living people will have a loudful laugh of our actually sight of all it - maybe also ok -, but i am just nowadys also happy, that will be " after my time on earth !!

Sorry for my bad english - but my main language is german - but also tried the " english one ", to be part of the discussion !! - and i will hope, that it is be a little bit of understandable !!

So, stay as you are, enjoy your upcoming live, and think in a positive way !!

Kindly regards from the " other side of the ocean ", from " good old germany " !!

But the things, that have changed, are not have changed in better ways, more in the other direction !!

By your actually age - 41 -, it was in my life the year of 1997, there we lived in a better world - maybe a special sight of my person, but i can also remember of these times, without Internet, and also with telephones, that were not wireless, and the news around the world, were not transported in a few minutes !!

Maybe an obsolete sight of mine, but these days are not the bad ones !!

And also yes, in a couple of years, the living people will have a loudful laugh of our actually sight of all it - maybe also ok -, but i am just nowadys also happy, that will be " after my time on earth !!

Hallo Germany

Yes, things were different not that long ago. It was not a bad time. It is just what people from then are used to. so it is comfortable.

I feel like this as well with some things. I'm the sort of person who sticks their finger in a mouse trap out of curiosity so change may be a different experience for me than others.

Your English is not so bad. I could read and understand your post.

Hate to break it to you but it is a perverts paradise. Think about why you’re here talking about it. Because it turns you on and you get off on it. Nothing wrong with that really, but call a spade a spade.

It is dehumanizing to degrade unwilling participants for no other reason than convenience. Certainly you can understand the logic behind that?

Hell, I think it’s hot too. I’ve got hard over some weird shit, but again, call a spade a spade.

Hallo Germany

Your English is not so bad. I could read and understand your post.

Many thanks " for the flowers " !! - i'll do my very best !!

Stay as you are and be also self-confident !!

Hate to break it to you but it is a perverts paradise. Think about why you’re here talking about it. Because it turns you on and you get off on it. Nothing wrong with that really, but call a spade a spade.

It is dehumanizing to degrade unwilling participants for no other reason than convenience. Certainly you can understand the logic behind that?

I somewhat agree with you but only partially. In the case of those military conscripts, their government is forcing them into a position that they neither wanted nor asked for. For those men and boys who had a sheltered or privileged upbringing, their experiences in the induction center must have been quite a nasty shock.

For those male swimmers, just like girl cheerleaders, it's a bit different. Whether it's a young male striding across the pool deck stark naked or in a tiny wet Speedo that shows everything, or a young female on the basketball court gyrating her hips in a skirt that barely covers her backside, they both know ahead of time that those are the requirements if they truly want that gig. They have a choice- they can either accept it, or do something else entirely. The choice is theirs, and theirs alone.

I often wonder if those swimmers and cheerleaders are fully or at least vaguely aware of what's probably going through a lot of the spectators', players', and even their teammates' minds while watching them compete or perform. I also wonder how all the dads and boyfriends of those cheerleaders feel about all those other males ( and some females also ) gazing lustfully at their daughters / girlfriends.

@ILuvLadyDocs

disagree. not all governments forced those men and women to enlist, and not all swimmers or cheerleaders were aware of "dehumanizing" exams. and besides, why should it be a situation where you have to choose to humiliate yourself if you want to pursue your passion or at least a sport? why do i have to choose, and see everybody lose? walk around and sing the blues, well darlin' i refuse, that's some willie nelson for you.

anyway, whether they knew it or not does not mean it is the proper thing to do. it could also cause psychological harm. for some of them it became a fetish, for some it didnt affect them at all and for others it could have warped their self image, given them body dysmorphia, etc.

People live to be professional victims. Victimhood culture is pervasive among the younger generations. While I am sure there was overstretch by school. military, and/or any other authorities, the nude male form was not seen as being a sexual object really. Even LIFE magazine featured ample nudity when doing exposés on military induction as well as inside male locker rooms. Being a later-born Gen Xer, I sorta came of age when public nudity in institutional settings was ebbing. In fact, even though my HS had shower rooms, no one used them. I don't think enforce nudity by authorities is a good thing but I also don't see how HS athletes or inductees were victims (well at least not in the sense of having to undress en masse). That's just my two cents.

@ILuvLadyDocs , Part of it is also a cultural dynamic. Men were expected to express less modesty (or no modesty at all) regardless of who or how many were present during states of undress. Maybe it's a guy thing too?

@ILuvLadyDocs , Part of it is also a cultural dynamic. Men were expected to express less modesty (or no modesty at all) regardless of who or how many were present during states of undress. Maybe it's a guy thing too?

Perhaps it was. Even the ancient Greek and Aztec male athletes competed nude more often than not. I bet you their women didn't complain though! Even today we've got the Nude Blacks rugby team from New Zealand, the Oblation Run and Takbong Hubo nude male foot races from the Philippines, the Bare To Breakers and World Naked Bike Ride here in the USA, nude baptisms in some Eastern European Orthodox churches, and newly inducted Jain monks walking naked through the streets of India. The male urge to "show off" is an ancient, primal instinct that can't be erased by social politics.

As far as the venues that banned female spectators during the heyday of nude male school swimming, THAT was a pointless and stupid gesture that ultimately served no purpose whatsoever. Our Russian, German, and Scandinavian counterparts must have been looking at us and either shaking their heads in disbelief or laughing their asses off at how dumb we were / are. Maybe both.

I've been on other websites where many of those former male swimmers and former female spectators freely admitted that they DID get something of a sexual thrill from that whole situation. I'm guessing that many if not all of the coaches, administrators, teachers. and parents KNEW that there was a slightly pseudo-erotic element to that whole thing, but played dumb for the sake of propriety. One coach privately advised his swimmers to "take care of business" well before the meet so that there wouldn't be any problems later. Another coach advised his team to stay focused on the competition, and to avoid direct eye contact with the crowd- especially the females. At the time, there was a running joke that whenever one of the lads would quickly rush home or quietly slip off to the locker room right after the meet was over, everyone pretty much knew why. It was already a foregone conclusion.

I keep reading these posts and thinking of the things happening in my regular fun and professional life.

I went to a boarding school for girls where we shared showers, and no one noticed it as a problem, I play soccer and floor hockey now and we share showers after playing at some facilities, before and after swimming at public pools I shower it always is yes naked before dressing in shared showers. With the Reserves, the showers are also shared. They tried making them gender-neutral which went over like a lead balloon.

Is some Lesbian going to look you over cute girl? You better believe it is going to happen.

The choice is yours to go around stinky and dirty or get over your hangups and be clean. If you have a problem with that decision it's a big problem.

Now it's a problem for both of us, and that is not a good thing.

Welcome to the real world!

Don't sit with me! YOU STINK!

As Ronald Reagan would say, there you go again.

You keep dumping this crap about religions causing the lack of acceptance of nudity and other such things but you produce NO EVIDENCE of that. Not a single study to support your hatred of Christianity.

So I will try to make what is crystal clear even more clear: When church attendance was high nudity was much more accepted in appropriate settings (doctor's offices, locker rooms, showers, even swimming pools). Now that church attendance has declined significantly we have people, especially the young ones, afraid to be seen even in their underwear, let alone nude, let alone showering with 20 other guys.

So your theory is blasted out of the water.

@Tighty_Whiteis_Now

This one has been bugging me for a couple weeks and I now have the opportunity to circle back to it and swat this nonsense down. First, you're assuming a correlation between showering naked and going to church, suggesting that one is responsible for the broader acceptance of the other with no evidence to suggest this is the case, and in spite of evidence to the contrary that you are either unaware of or willfully choosing to ignore. The majority of Americans lived on farms then as well, should we then assume living on farms was responsible for the acceptance of nude swimming or communal showers? Of course not, because that would be stupid.

Now, I don't go around reading scientific studies for fun because I ain't no nerd, but what I can tell you is after the decline and eventual fall of Rome, when lands that had previously been under Roman rule were then under Christian control, there was one change which is very relevant to the conversation: public bathing was split by gender, people using the public baths began wearing lion cloths, or in some areas public bathing was eliminated altogether. We're talking late 4th century, early 5th century, about the same time as gladiator games ended in the Colosseum, if you want to look it up. It's almost like history suggests the exact opposite of what you are suggesting...