It will always be a Vagina, not a Vulva.

@Jacana i agree with @agracier - English is less suited for playful diminutives than the Romance Languages. We’re a bit too German 🤣

EDIT

although some women will call it their ‘kitty’ instead of pussy etc so I guess there is maybe a layer between childish and vulgar. It’s hard for me because I’ve always liked the vulgar during sex. ‘Fuck my pussy hard!’

@Nurse_Phillips I've seen "cunny" as diminutive for "cunt", or perhaps inspired by French "con". Can you figure out what "enconner" means? (Alas no longer used nowadays except pompous erotica that try to imitate Sade and others from that era. The similar "enculer" is however very much in use, though often in a figurative sense.)

@Jacana Cunny is more a Britishism than an Americanism and may be a bit old fashioned as well

Cunny is more a Britishism than an Americanism and may be a bit old fashioned as well

Lots of nice old archaic terms: quim, coynte, quince.

Cunny was used in the series 'Rome' a lot. Probably to introduce a notion of antiquity and yet not be too vulgar.

I've always had a funny bone for 'poontang' which my father would unbeknownst, lapse into from time to time. Though I think it is used interchangeably for both the female organ and for 'gettin' some' ... ha ha. Used hilariously by Brad Pitt in a scene in 'Once Upon a Time in Hollywood'.

Even some women are unaware of proper terms for their anatomy. Lady friend was recounting visiting her ex who had many photos of female external genitalia. She kept referring to the pics as 'vaginas,' instead of vulvas. I gave her the anatomy lesson. She'd never heard 'vulva.' The word 'pussy' seems to encompass the external and internal genitalia. There isn't any confusion.

I don’t want to offend anyone’s choice of words, but if a woman described her private parts as a vagina, and a rectum, I wouldn’t find it sexy. Pussy and asshole is more likely to get my attention. It has a lot to do with image. One sounds like something that would be directed to a platonic friend, while the other sounds more natural and romantic.

@JJM The rectum is not the asshole. The asshole is the anus. The rectum is what's inside and is not normally visible.

@Nurse_Phillips

@Koan bless your heart.

Conspiracies? No. Do I think that people are purposefully trying to reduce women to a second class status? Well some are yes, but that wasn’t my point.

Our colloquial language is absolutely affected by patriarchal attitudes (and before you accuse me of being a liberal, I’m a Libertarian) and those attitudes self perpetuate through language.

Are women trying to change the language around their own bodies? Yes we are and what’s wrong with that? Language shapes how we think.

You must be an Okie with your use of "bless your heart" lol.

Actually, the claim that “By referring to a woman's vulva as a vagina you're invalidating her sexuality as nothing more than a receptacle for your penis or a machine for making babies,” you are indeed trying to make the point that people are purposefully trying to reduce women to second class status, unless of course you wouldn't find that view of women to be second class. I certainly would.

I would never accuse you of being a liberal lol.

My point is, aside from a conspiratorial mentality, there's no reason to believe this misuse was a deliberate attempt to focus on men's pleasure at the expense of correctly referring to a woman's body part. That does seem extreme; to think that men are tying to miseducate the public so that people more normalize the word where the penis goes. Btw, the penis needs to go between the vulva before entering the vagina. Sometimes this sort of confusion happens. As I pointed out, the very same terminology misuse occurs with internal combustion engines. Who's behind that and what's their hidden agenda?

I'm a big fan of using correct terminology. If you felt I was opposed to encouraging proper reference to anatomy, you let your political agenda get in the way of comprehension.

@Jacana The rectum is not the asshole. The asshole is the anus. The rectum is what's inside and is not normally visible.

This is true, but saying "I want you to stick your dick in my rectum" is equally correct to "I want you to stick your dick in my asshole." Once through the asshole, it's in the rectum.

Interstingly, what is called a rectal thermometer no longer is. The thermometer used to be inserted well into the rectum. With the current thermometers with the shoulder after the thin sensing portion, it really is an anal temperature. The sensor doesn't enter the rectum (except for erotic pics lol). I'm referring of course to glass analogue thermometers.

@bratwurst Even some women are unaware of proper terms for their anatomy. Lady friend was recounting visiting her ex who had many photos of female external genitalia. She kept referring to the pics as 'vaginas,' instead of vulvas. I gave her the anatomy lesson. She'd never heard 'vulva.' The word 'pussy' seems to encompass the external and internal genitalia. There isn't any confusion.

In my experience, women are just as likely to misuse anatomical terms for their body as men. And they often don't seem to have much better idea of how their body works, except for how to deal with menstration.

@Jacana I've seen "cunny" as diminutive for "cunt", or perhaps inspired by French "con". Can you figure out what "enconner" means? (Alas no longer used nowadays except pompous erotica that try to imitate Sade and others from that era. The similar "enculer" is however very much in use, though often in a figurative sense.)

I also see 'cunny' as a diminutive of 'cunt,' but it's like it conveys the same effect without saying the really nasty word. I wouldn't use 'cunny' in a situation where I wouldn't use 'cunt,' which would only be during nasty sex with someone I knew was ok with that word. Someone I know hates the use of cunny. She thinks it's like calling the vagina a 'vajayjay.'

@Koan far from. I’m a Masshole living in Texas.

Deliberate miseducation? Far from, more like patriarchal mores and thought shaping speech.

Who, until very very recently had a virtual monopoly on pretty much everything? Men. Men drove cultural norms.

So let’s talk about the focus on vagina vs vulva. The terms are contemporary and educated medical professionals have known the difference since before Galen and Hippocrates.

So why the misuse? According to men, what’s the primary function of a woman’s sexuality? A receptacle for their penis and a way to make babies. What part is used for both? The vagina.

What’s the LEAST sensitive part of a woman’s sexual anatomy? You got it, the vagina. We’ve got nerves around the opening, but once you’re inside it’s just pressure.

Every 20th Century man knew what a vagina was and where it was. How many could say the same about a clitoris?

Deliberate? No. Until recently, men just didn’t give a shit - and it’s not misandry if it’s true 😉❤️

@Nurse_Phillips Close enough.

That's all extreme speculation. These misapplications of words happens for unknown reasons. In the healthcare community, there is almost universal misuse of the term "trendelenburg." The correct term is 'shock position,' but people routinely call it 'Trendelenburg' position. In fact, ambulance stretcher manufacturers advertise their products as having 'trendelenburg feature,' when it is in fact a 'shock position' feature. As I pointed out, terms used to describe an engine are routinely misused. For that matter, it's common for people to misuse the terms engine and motor.

What nefarious intention is behind all this?

When I was in high school, we were taught the difference between a vulva and an vagina, but tbh, none of us really used those terms. They were clinical. They weren't used in everyday conversation. But 'vagina' became more normalized in my life when girls started talking about it. I'm sure they also learned the right terms in health class.

Why did the (female) author of the 'vagina monologues' call in that, instead of the 'vulva monologues?' Did this modern feminist really not know what her body parts were called?

Of what benefit is it to men to use the wrong term? Will they get their dick in a vagina more easily if they engage in a conspiracy to teach people a vulva is a vagina?

Why don't women lead the way in properly referring to their body?

You don't think men in the 20 century knew what a clitoris was? I certainly did. In fact, there was an early 1970's porn movie, Deep Throat in which a woman's clitoris was in her throat. Of course men knew what a clitoris was.

No, it's misandry if one is seeking victimhood status.

@Koan nefarious? You’re the one using the word ‘conspiracy’. I’m talking about 3000 years of cultural conditioning. I’m actually in full agreement about the misuse of terms being a common thing and a self perpetuating one. I’m talking about the reason why that particular word is the common choice.

You mention The Vagina Monologues. Did you see/read it? If so, nothing I’m talking about should be surprising to you. If not, I highly recommend it. Betty Dodson’s main critique of the play was its focus on the vagina vs the clitoris.

You talk about ‘the early 70’s’ as if that represents the entire century. At best it’s the last 1/3rd of it and you’re using a PORNO to make your case that the majority of men knew where and what a clitoris was? Weak sauce my friend.

My and other women calling men out on shit behavior isn’t seeking victimhood status. Quite the opposite, it’s refusing to be victimized any longer.

@Nurse_Phillips amen.

Quite the opposite, it’s refusing to be victimized any longer.

@Nurse_Phillips "The vagina is simply the tube, but that’s what gives men pleasure so that’s all they give a hoot about.”

“There's little doubt that the word 'vagina' was used as the 'medical' way to refer to that area when I was growing up. Why? (and I can only speak for the US here) Because the vast majority of people who made decisions on sexual education etc were men, and to them the important structure was the vagina - that sheath that accepted the penis and provided a pathway for birth.”

“By referring to a woman's vulva as a vagina you're invalidating her sexuality as nothing more than a receptacle for your penis or a machine for making babies.”

That sounds pretty conspiratorial and victimhood seeking to me, and most other rational people, I'm sure.

That's the whole point: a lot of words are misused and no one in their right mind claims it was done for some groups' personal benefit. And as I asked, how do these terrible guys who purposely miseducated people benefit by getting society to use the wrong term? It isn't even logical.

In order for the movie to be appreciated, and it was a hit, in part because it was the first porn to actually have a plot, the audience had to know what a clitoris was. Obviously they knew what it was well before that. It had to have been a normalized word (meaning it was commonly understood for a loooong time) in order for the large audience to understand.

You may criticize this observation as being weak, but it's more objective than anything you've offered, typical rhetoric not withstanding.

Yes, yes, yes. Misused nomenclature by both men and women is shit behavior on men's part. gotcha.

btw, you're contradicting yourself. You're claiming women are being 'victimized' by this (lol), but you deny you're trying to claim victimhood status. A bit of logic goes a long way.

I have a file of articles and postings which I find interesting, humorous in their foolishness, reflective of some specific elements of society, or that I just might think I'd get a kick out of showing someone in the future (also some serious political/social postings). Your earlier posts in this thread, the ones I quoted to Jacana, have made it in my file 😃. Congratulations. Someone wants to quote you. (btw, I've attached no notation of where the writings come from, nor of course of your screenname).

@Nurse_Phillips Comme to think of it, many people in France say "minou" for vagina/vulva, which is yet another familiar term for a cat and would translate as "kitty". To me it sounds less vulgar than "chatte". "Minette" (female "minou", thus female cat) seems also used, but I've also seen it in the phrase "faire une minette" = "do cunnilingus".

The feline metaphor is decidedly strong in both French and English. Funny that it stays in a day and age when many women remove their pubic hair…

@koan European glass thermometers of my childhood also had this "shoulder" and people were already talking of "rectal" temperatures back then. I suppose the argument is that the thin part of the thermometer is held by the anus, but the very tip is in the rectum, at the very entrance. I agree that US-style thermometers, which were pushed deeper, seem more "rectal". I've also heard of users of European thermometer pushing them further (the wider part enters easily with some lubricant, and I've even heard of some pushing it in without lubricant).

@Jacana Yes, I was surprised when I saw in a B&W movie, probably from the 70's, the rectal temp of a 15 year old boy being taken with a thermometer of the shoulder style. My understanding was all the old mercury thermometers were the slender, straight style and the shoulder style thermometer was developed when gallium thermometers were developed. Do you know if the ones used in your childhood were mercury or gallium filled? Are you saying the slender thermometers were specifically an American style thermometer?

My understanding is the this shoulder style thermometer is not supposed to go past the anus, as it's designed for direct contact with the sensing area, whereas the real rectal thermometers were designed to read the temp in basically air; that is, inside the rectum but not necessarily in contact with any tissue.

@Koan I think my parents had a mercury one and later bought a gallium (or whatever) one that they used in preference (less risks if broken), which had blue liquid. Both were the same shape. This was 40 years ago so things get blurry.

I indeed suspect that the slender shape is more American. But now I wonder: what I'm talking here is France 1970s/1980s, how were thermometers in the 1930s etc.

Interesting. I did wonder why they changed the shape of the thermometer just because they changed the liquid inside, but from what you're saying that wasn't the case. And that makes sense. When they stopped using mercury in the USA, the prominent new brand was GeraTherm, which I believe was a German company. So it had nothing to do with the substance inside; it was simply different styles in different parts of the world.

How long did the thermometer have to stay in when you were growing up?

@Koan I distinctly recall thermometers labeled "maximum à la minute" (or was it "maxima à la minute"?), so I guess they advised 1 minute. My mother timed 3 minutes if I recall correctly.

@Nurse_Phillips "The vagina is simply the tube, but that’s what gives men pleasure so that’s all they give a hoot about.”

“There's little doubt that the word 'vagina' was used as the 'medical' way to refer to that area when I was growing up. Why? (and I can only speak for the US here) Because the vast majority of people who made decisions on sexual education etc were men, and to them the important structure was the vagina - that sheath that accepted the penis and provided a pathway for birth.”

“By referring to a woman's vulva as a vagina you're invalidating her sexuality as nothing more than a receptacle for your penis or a machine for making babies.”

That sounds pretty conspiratorial and victimhood seeking to me, and most other rational people, I'm sure.

Interesting you should react that way. I'm just making a historical observation and I'm far from alone in this observation. In no place in my writing have I mentioned 'conspiracy'. There's nothing conspiratorial about it, it's overt. Victim? In no place have I claimed victim status for myself or other women. I'm just calling out how things are. If, in your mind, that makes us victims, maybe you should think hard on that. Finally, did you know your little bit at the end is called the 'All True Scotsmen' argument? It's considered bad form in debate.

That's the whole point: a lot of words are misused and no one in their right mind claims it was done for some groups' personal benefit. And as I asked, how do these terrible guys who purposely miseducated people benefit by getting society to use the wrong term? It isn't even logical.

You're missing my point all together. I agree the word is misused. I'm pointing out the cultural conditioning that causes it's misuse.

In order for the movie to be appreciated, and it was a hit, in part because it was the first porn to actually have a plot, the audience had to know what a clitoris was. Obviously they knew what it was well before that. It had to have been a normalized word (meaning it was commonly understood for a loooong time) in order for the large audience to understand.

You may criticize this observation as being weak, but it's more objective than anything you've offered, typical rhetoric not withstanding.

It's weak because a) as a porno in the 70's it's far from mainstream. b) by it's very niche nature its audience was already self-selected and finally, c) it's very plot - the woman's clit was in her throat and she could only cum by giving oral to men - OK, you don't see the patriarchal wish-list there? Seriously? Read my words again. I don't say 'no one' knew what a clit was, I say a lot more men knew what a vagina was vs what a clitoris was. So you knew what a clit was, good for you. Did your father? How about your grandfather?

Yes, yes, yes. Misused nomenclature by both men and women is shit behavior on men's part. gotcha.

Again, not what I said nor what I implied.

btw, you're contradicting yourself. You're claiming women are being 'victimized' by this (lol), but you deny you're trying to claim victimhood status. A bit of logic goes a long way.

As I never claimed victimhood, there is no contradiction, you seem to keep wanting to award me victimhood status.

I have a file of articles and postings which I find interesting, humorous in their foolishness, reflective of some specific elements of society, or that I just might think I'd get a kick out of showing someone in the future (also some serious political/social postings). Your earlier posts in this thread, the ones I quoted to Jacana, have made it in my file 😃. Congratulations. Someone wants to quote you. (btw, I've attached no notation of where the writings come from, nor of course of your screenname).

Is this supposed to intimidate me?

Just as any hole is nothing, so too, with the vagina. Of course we talk about all kinds of holes, but really, isn't talking about nothing the only way to avoid the anger of those whose life goal is to be angry at everything? And nothing?

This is an interesting thread ... female genitalia ... or external female genitalia ... and here is a link that gives you all the parts ... their anatomical names or scientific labels ... purposes ...

https://www.kenhub.com/en/library/anatomy/external-female-genitalia

But somewhere along the way ... for whatever reasons ... the female genitalia took on political ... societal ... religious ... meanings for controlling ... or attempting to control ... the way that women see themselves and the way that others see women. Religion and politics have an interest in controlling how female genitalia are viewed and defined for their own purposes ... whatever they may be ... and almost never for the good of the one who possess female genitalia. IF YOU LET ... THEM ... dictate what you call it ... or what they call it ... by the fear of ... god ... or the law ... or the local PTA ... then you put yourself at their mercy ... to be intimidated ... stifled and smothered ... withdrawn ... disengaged and disenfranchised ... all the while the established powers standby and either actively hold a woman down ... or worse ... standby with their mouths shut and let it happen. And all too many times ... other women are just as guilty in making it easier to intimidate other women.

Grab them by the pussy ... remain pure and take an oath of purity ... have to consult a law book to see if the woman can get the medical care ... SHE ... wants ... ... ... it's all about external sources trying to ... and sometimes succeeding ... in keeping ... females ... in their place. It can be lonely for the woman unless she has people around her that ... respect ... and support her ... those who won't accept the ... boys will be boys ... or blame the woman for being a woman ... or being nothing but a life support system for a pussy. AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MODERATORS AT ZITY ... THEY DO RIGHT BY US. ❤️

Here at zity.biz ... there are a majority of people who accept and support women for who we are ... goddesses ... 😉😁 ... and here ... except for those few ... 😡 dicks 😡... who have been banned by the fantastic moderators ... i do have female genitalia and some of you can refer to it as a pussy ... or vulva ... or even vagina ... BUT ... it's ... MINE ... and i had better know you before you get so ... familiar ... or think things that just aren't there. Whether i feel comfortable with your using ... pussy ... or twat ... or cooter ... or coochie ... or ... ... cunt ... ... when referring to ... MY FEMALE GENITALIA ... is up to me to feel how i feel about you and whether you are granted that ... privilege ... when referring to me. And that goes double for your feeling the way you feel about your own thoughts and experiences ... those are for you to own as yours just as mine are my own.

As to the correct terminology ... call it what you want ... i don't care ... just don't try to impose your views on me ... or intimidate me.

😶

Are some of you waiting for me to say ... or else?

😶

FYI ... only ... 😡 dicks 😡 ... are waiting ... not the good people here at zity.

@gibby 🙌

I know the difference between the two words. I like to shave or closely trim a lady’s pubic hair so I can see her vulva. It’s very sexy and erotic when it’s visible. I ask to see her vagina when I want to get close and personal with her labia, clitoris and introtis.

Well said @gibby . You too @Nurse_Phillips .

The traditional words used colloquially for the whole thing was Cunt or Pussy, and in a higher registry Vulva, and vagina was reserved for the channel up towards the womb.

But gradually the semantic distinction has been lost for most persons and they tend to call all of it Vagina.

I think this is the result of the efforts of the elite in charge of society to diseducate the great masses of people for the sake of making the masses easier to herd and exploit.

I see this tendency in the English speaking world and also in my national area, Scandinavia.

This tendency does not only affect semantics of body parts, but the whole language, even grammatical rules that are necessary for correct interpretation of speach and writing.

And this dumbing and dislearning is excerted upon the kids even by the schools.

Steadily the schools socialize kids from understanding and from intelligent conversation, and socialize them into blindly believing what authorities say.

But it has the side effect that kids then tend to obay whatever person or instance behaving like an authority figure, even mafia bosses of various kind, gang lleaders and religious leaders, and with very prominent and bad results.

We had a Lancia Fulvia, which incidentally was one of the best cars I’ve had. Anyway, we used to laughingly call it our Cunt Car, for obvious reasons.