Virginity Checks

Mollie: I'm not talking about things happening today, but 20 years ago and more. And as I said, even though it is illegal to request a "virginity test" or require a "virginity certificate", there were workarounds. And of course, if French physicians refuse to perform such examinations, there is always, for parents of a foreign origin, the option to have it done elsewhere... Some communities (e.g. gypsies) have older women perform such examinations.

Even in this forum somebody mentioned taking his daughter to the hospital for stomach pains, which were due to an urinary infection, and learning that the girl was sexually active.

Regarding the nuns: I agree a nun cannot tell in general for sure if a girl is a virgin or not simply by looking that their vaginal opening/ hymen or lack thereof. Yet there are multiple testimonies that in the 1950s, the nuns running these schools examined the opening and the hymen, and even that this was the focus point of the entrance medical exam. Unsure about the method; somme testimonies seem to suggest a finger, others a speculum.

Agracier: It is rumoured that Diana Spencer had to undertake a gynecological examination before wedding Prince Charles and that this included a virginity check. One criterion was that the bride should be a virgin...

Again this may have been disguised as a medical check-up to see whether she would be able to bear children.

This does indeed sound like a very old tradition from medieval times or before. All in all I'd say the Lady was lucky that no witnesses to deflowering a prospective mother to the heir of the Crown were required to verify the first royal coupling. Stranger wedding customs than that existed in the West you know ... and Royalty often has a difficult time discarding old traditions ... 😃

The historical instance I was referring to was Eva Braun. She was sent to a nun's boarding school somewhere in Bavaria in the 1920s. Upon graduation and return to their parents care again, it seems that in the 1920-30s, it was not at all unusual for girls to get a final medical exam, which included a sort of certificate of virginity. This to prove that while the girls were in the boarding school's care, they were indeed watched over and guarded from any kind of sexual temptation. Call it a sort of warranty if you like, or proof of proper care.

I have read about this in some of the more exhaustive of Eva Braun's biographies, which, while interesting, is just a 'fait divers' in her sad life story and appalling choice of boyfriend.

And in our modern times, if a proof of virginity were still thought to be necessary in some immigrant families, then all they would need to do is go a fellow immigrant doctor who understood the custom. There would be no difficulty in that at all, certainly not in countries like France or Belgium. Whatever the law says, arranged marriages happen more than one would think in some ethnic groups. Compared to arranging a marriage between, let us surmise, unwilling partners, sending a daughter to a sympathetic and understanding doctor, would be a piece of cake.

Agracier: Indeed, I've read several times than in French royalty, some female witness(es) attended the wedding night to attest the bride was duly deflowered.

Agracier: Indeed, I've read several times than in French royalty, some female witness(es) attended the wedding night to attest the bride was duly deflowered.

Since royal marriages were mainly about diplomacy and could result in very significant inheritances in land and titles (and therefore rights to tax collecting!), it made good sense to know that the bride was at least deflowered by the right groom and by extension that any children born were legitimate heirs.

Agracier: Also, an unconsummated marriage could be cancelled. The bride (well, her parents) could complain about lack of consummation. Thus the witnesses that the deed was duly done.

(I read that Marie-Antoinette's father complained to Louis XVI about lack of sexual activity. Louis XVI had phimosis, and his father-in-law urged him to take surgery.)

(I read that Marie-Antoinette's father complained to Louis XVI about lack of sexual activity. Louis XVI had phimosis, and his father-in-law urged him to take surgery.)

It seems like back in those days, everyone and their cousin knew intimate details about the highest nobility. One huge gossip factory. I don't know if Louis XVI ever met his father-in-law, the Austrian emperor, but I doubt it. So all these intimate and embarrassing details get talked about and discussed and negotiated via go-betweens.

What a life! ... ha ha

Agracier: Via letters, as far as I understand. I hope they did not need translators.

And yes you're right. Wedding night consummated in presence of witnesses (nurse or similar), sometimes under the orders of parents (I think Louis XIII of France was ordered by his mother to consummate his marriage - even though he was suppose to rule he was not yet in real power). Childbirth in public.

To go back to the original topic, I wonder whether it was common practice to check the virginity of brides at least in bourgeois/nobility.

I recall reading stuff about 19th century paternalistic handling of "lost girls" in England and it seems that virginity was checked...

(I think Louis XIII of France was ordered by his mother to consummate his marriage in presence of witnesses (nurse or similar) - even though he was suppose to rule he was not yet in real power).

I think that was because Louis XIII was notoriously known as being gay. I suppose his mother would not have put it past him to have asked a friend or ordered a page or whomever to do it for him. So, mommy sets up a system of checks and balances ... ha ha ha

My gf had one in eastern Europe 15 years ago at a clinic while her mother watched. She had to stand naked from the waist down while the nurse explained to her mother that sticking out hoods and lips didn't mean someone had had sex. Then she had to lie down for her opening to be inspected. The nurse said she was a virgin, however my gf confessed she was shitting herself as she had actually been fingered by her first gf a week before!

Agracier: It is rumoured that Diana Spencer had to undertake a gynecological examination before wedding Prince Charles and that this included a virginity check. One criterion was that the bride should be a virgin...

Too bad that didn't go both ways. Charles had been carrying on with Camilla at the same time he was courting Diana.

Annie why would this be done?

Annie why would this be done?

Maybe because of religion? In eastern Europe, religion is treated far more seriously than in the west ... old-fashioned ideas often die out slowly ...

Well, different Countries, different cultures, different procedures

Virginity checks are prevalent in many countries and cultures.

In South East Asia with arranged marriage s the groom's family many demand such a check on the bride. I think this was an old time practice though.

More recent:

http://time.com/3883558/indonesia-virginity-tests/

Apparently, British immigration officials imposed virginity checks on Indian women migrating to the UK in the 1970s, including with male physicians. The rationale was to detect if they were lying about traveling to the UK to marry somebody legally installed there. British officials thought that Indians only married virgins, so if the woman was not a virgin it was a sign that the story was fake.

Virginity checks - or proof of virginity at marriage has been around for a long time, with sometimes rather harsh consequences: (Deut 22:13-21)

“But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you."

Some countries/cultures still require proof of virginity prior to marriage. Tajikistan’s state-funded Republican Center for Forensic Medical Examinations continues to issue virginity certificates.

In Western culture virginity checks are almost impossible. Nevertheless we should respect other systems. Many procedures aren't 'useful' in our understanding. It's the question whether a society with soft and hard roles is better prepared to survive than our warriors in Ukraine war.

Nevertheless we should respect other systems.

No. No we should’t respect a system that treats women as a commodity, subjecting them to inspection to determine if their ‘purity seal’ is still intact. No. Fuck that and I’ll die on that hill.

As to the comment re war, if you’re a student of history you can easily see that at the start of America’s involvement in WWII there were multiple editorials in the news questioning whether or not the ‘soft youth’ of today could stand up to the rigors of war. I’d say they did just fine.

You do what needs to be done.

As to the comment re war, if you’re a student of history you can easily see that at the start of America’s involvement in WWII there were multiple editorials in the news questioning whether or not the ‘soft youth’ of today could stand up to the rigors of war. I’d say they did just fine.

The same was said prior to 1914 about French men, supposedly emasculated in the decadent, indulgent, absinthe-riddled society of the Belle Epoque with luxurious brothels and loose morals.

Yet when the German invasion came in August 1914 till the end of the Great War in the West, they fought and died by the tens of thousands in single battles in the most dreadful of circumstances, in the filth and depredation of trench warfare and held the line and carried through to victory.

This can happen in all nations, given the proper cause.

Virginity checks are obscene and dehumanizing and should never ever be foisted upon any woman coming of age. I also absolutely loathe those who insist on 'Purity Vows' and such utter rot and nonsense and the bloody and sodding 'Purity Balls' that young women are subjected to. It is obscene and in no small way something of pedophilia in my view and it makes me want to scream.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fh3RAhKSm9WM%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=59eea73efdf6bb203e3927adf568434f3a3885c1b388a8d95e28ae76c6f16407&ipo=images

Who in the bloody hell thinks that this is in any way shape or form normal and wholesome? A woman's body should not be the 'jurisdiction' or subject to inspection by a man whomsoever that might be, to ensure that she is pure and chaste. A woman's body is hers alone and there should be no laws or religious edicts that she should have to subject herself to. That lot can just sod off! That picture above makes my stomach churn and I've not seen much any more depraved than that.

As to any war that is to be fought it should be those sodding bastards well into their 60's and 70's and 80's and whose fortunes are made in the war industry who take up arms and 'die for god and country'. And not for the young with so much life yet to live to give their youth to religious zealots and greedy corporations or people not worthy lick their boots.

Amen to that @Ms_Lila . You hit the nail on the head.

I had a friend who was getting ready to get married. His Mom asked the GF and soon to be wife if she was a virgin. It caused some tension and arguments in the family!!

@Ms_Lila that picture is creepy as fuck.

@Dahiana @Ms_Lila You two are right. & I thought I'd dealt with some sick fucked up people - just goes to show there's always another bunch of sickos out there!

Losing your virginity is not a disease. This cannot be considered a reason for a medical examination.

@Ms_Lila that picture is creepy as fuck.

Since @Ms_Lila has not responded in writing I will defend her picture by stating it looks like WWII Bomber nose art.

It is a rather cool art form.

It is not creepy it is both iconic and symbolic.

If you happen to be reading this MS Lila I am behind you in your views on purity checks and the other disgusting things.

A woman's body is her own to do with as she pleases.

Losing your virginity is not a disease. This cannot be considered a reason for a medical examination.

It some cultures, it still is considered a legitimate concern. And this was so even in Europe not all that long ago.

For instance, I was really surprised when once reading an in-dept, serious bio of Eva Braun, that she was sent to a Catholic boarding school in Germany in her teens and that upon graduation, she not only received her degree, but also an affirmation that upon graduation she had been found to be a virgin. This was to show that the nuns/institution in whose care she had been placed, had carefully taken care of her and protected her from the onerous temptations of the world.

And remember, she was nothing special at the time of her graduation shortly after WWI. And that obviously all the other good bourgeois German Maedel in the institution were no doubt similarly examined. Just one of those things that was seldom talked about, but still performed in certain circumstances and in certain social groups, about a century ago. Which, historically is not that long ago.

Remember back then was also a time when STD's (especially syphilis) were a very serious concern regarding not only health, but also re. potential offspring. Being a virgin was supposed (I did say supposed ... ) to guarantee that a future bride be disease free and hence be able to produce healthy heirs.

That was how the thinking went back then.

There is even a corollary to such thinking in many parts of present-day Africa. Virgins are desired and esteemed as sexual partners because they (once again) are supposedly not able to be infected with HIV.

Since @Ms_Lila has not responded in writing I will defend her picture by stating it looks like WWII Bomber nose art.

It is a rather cool art form.

It is not creepy it is both iconic and symbolic.

If you happen to be reading this MS Lila I am behind you in your views on purity checks and the other disgusting things.

A woman's body is her own to do with as she pleases.

I think the picture she referenced was the link in @Ms_lila’s post not her avatar.

Since @Ms_Lila has not responded in writing I will defend her picture by stating it looks like ...

A woman's body is her own to do with as she pleases.

@Bad_Princess I'm not sure what you were referring to but @Nurse_Phillips is right about the link being the picture.

I thought what @Bad_Princess meant is it’s ok for women to chose to save their virginity for marriage (or not). My take on the Purity Balls is that they’re for the dads. It’s fine if a girl decides to be celibate for whatever reason SHE choses and you don’t need to assert it at an event like that. I’d bet a lot of them are coerced into it and it’s their dads/families decision. Couple of the girls in that picture don’t look too happy. Seems like a Catholic scheme to put guilt and shame on a young girl

@Bad_Princess forgive me for my interpretation if that’s off track.