Two conversations

Some years ago, a friend of mine made a joke. I don't recall what the joke was exactly, maybe something about a boy coming back from the hospital with “something missing”. I asked her to confirm it was about circumcision, she said yes, and she justify this joke by “mothers talk together, you know”.

Another friend of mine mentioned as an annoyance (yet another problem with this boy!) her 7 year old son being diagnosed with phimosis and the need to perform stretching exercises with steroid cream, else the doctor advised removing the foreskin. I mentioned to her that a cousin of mine had been circumcised at about that age and later complaining of irritations there during sex, she said she left such issues to her husband.

I find it interesting that women may so casually discuss removal of bodily pieces from boys. 😉

Would not ever talking about it make it seem some sort of taboo topic, what is gained from silence on it?

I don't think l quite follow you, ethan 256625. Circumcision is no secret to most people, and talking about whether or not a particular boy has been ‘done’ is nothing startling, is it? (Thanks to Pecan nutjob for his original post here, which strikes me as both thoughtful and amusing!)

- Ken

What I find uneasy is not the “taboo” topic because it is related to sexuality, but how casually some women can talk of the gratuitous removal of a body part.

When I was a child, I heard my mother « talk together » with other mothers about this. I don’t remember all details, but I’m sure that my mother said that I was circumcised, another mother said that his son had a painful forced foreskin retraction at the doctor's office. I saw later the penis of this boy, he was not circumcised and he found my own penis ugly.

If I remember this conversation, it is an evidence that I was already aware of my trouble with this operation. I had recently a relation with a new partner. He asked me : « How do you masturbate without foreskin ? It is very sensitive for me to retract the foreskin very slowly. »

Well here in the US it has been Routinely done for quite sometime and I was kind of an outlier in that I was born in the US and not circumcised because my parents lacked health insurance at the time of my birth and the hospital pediatrician said it wasn’t absolutely necessary and I could be brought back later once covered but because my father wasn’t they never bothered to do it. My stepmother and a female pediatrician discussed the pros and cons and wanted to do it when I was around 12 but my father let me decide and I said I didn’t want to when she showed where I would be cut.

phimosos did finally cause a situation where I had no choice much later and got circumcised. I did lose some sensation but otherwise nothing really changed. I can do everything I did before.

I have a similar recollection. My mother had clearly been talking with my friend's mother. When we got home, she told my father in a very matter of fact way that my friend was going to have to be circumcised , we were 11 or 12 I think at the time . This is the first time I had heard the subject being discussed so openly and in such a nonchalant way. “ Oh, P is going to have R circumcised next week ” as if it was nothing at all.

… gratuitous removal of a body part.

Is it gratuitous in a case of phimosis? Its a genuine medical diagnosis with a recognised surgical cure.

In my (American) experience, I have found that when the topic of circumcision comes up with women, they're generally pretty open to discussing it as long as it doesn't get too explicit. Maybe because circumcision is part of the American cultural psyche.

@ethan256625 Phimosis in a child poses no particular health problem as long as it is not so extreme as to cause difficulties in urination and that it does not result in balanitis. My cousin, for instance, suffered from no adverse effect. He was circumcised in prevention of possible future effects, in case the issue did not clear by itself.

In Europe, circumcision is not only a medical question, but one with very deep, historic and cultural associations in that it is intrinsically tied up with religion. Historically, until very recently, circumcision was only performed on those unlucky individuals with a medical problem, unless one was Jewish and now more often Muslim. Then circumcision became an identifying characteristic, unmistakably linked to that person's religious identity. There was simply no escaping the link between the two.

Men living in European countries who were cut, were automatically and irrevocably presumed to be Jewish (and now Muslim) with all the negative connotations that unfortunately brings and brought along with it. During the occupation years and even before, being circumcised was potentially a significant factor in determining a person's fate, both socially and physically. In many circumstances it was a literal death sentence.

Perhaps such things are not openly discussed in school or in general, but everyone with any sense of history knows what the results often were. That is why there is still a residual sense of unease about circumcision in Europe. Too many bad historical associations.

@agracier Probably why my aunt's physician claimed the surgery for phimosis was unlike ritual circumcision and removed less (my cousin got a complete circumcision anyway): in a culturally Catholic family, circumcision was perceived as a Jewish or Muslim thing unless it could be recast as a small hygienic surgery preventing disease. In fact, my aunt avoided the word “circumcision” and instead insisted it was just “phimosis surgery”.

Note that in French there are two different words for circumcision depending on whether it is done for religious or medical reasons: “circoncision” (religious) and “posthectomie” (medical), even if the surgery is identical.

Circumcision is no secret to most people, and talking about whether or not a particular boy has been ‘done’ is nothing startling, is it?

In my circle of friends and acquaintances I have never known the topic of circumcision to be brought up. Never. Perhaps wives talk about it amongst themselves, though who knows?

Besides, unless because of some unfortunate medical condition, there is simply no expectation of anyone being cut for any other reason (except religion and that doesn't really apply to my friends/acquaintances).

@agracier Do you have children? My experience is that such things may come up during conversations between parents, because parents often discuss the medical issues of their kids with other parents.

In the beginning of Ms Spingora's book on how she was abused by Gabriel Matzneff, she discusses how in elementary school she had been caught playing with a little boy's penis by the schoolteacher, who mentions casually that it happened after the boy had been circumcised.

As I shake the piles of dust & age off my memories…the issue or topic of circumsion must be examined honestly. The thinking of the 1950's--60's is not what goes in the 21st century. Back Then-- most boys of Caucasian status were automatically circumcized at birth--as a health issue to protect against cancer and/or other medical issues. Below the “Mason/Dickson” line (the Old South) this was not the case. Boys born in the Southern States were generally not circumcised. Most of the Southern States also banned/rejected putting Fluoride in the water systems (until the latter 60's) as it was perceived to be a “communist plot” and not to prevent dental cavities. Of course all that silly nonsense faded away.Basically--circumcision of boys was a health issue that the medical folk accepted in that time frame..

As I shake the piles of dust & age off The thinking of the 1950's--60's is not what goes in the 21st century. Back Then-- most boys of Caucasian status were automatically circumcized at birth

Don't forget that this applied to the US only. Aside from a Jewish or Muslim nation, no other country practiced this routinely And there are lots of Caucasian kids born outside of the US.

@agracier Do you have children? My experience is that such things may come up during conversations between parents, because parents often discuss the medical issues of their kids with other parents.

We had two foster boys, one later adopted. But even so, I simply cannot remember myself ever having a conversation about circumcision. What the mothers discussed and gossiped about, I cannot really say of course.

Thinking on this, and to illustrate the dread that was often present when thinking about being circumcised in Europe, I remembered something that happened in High School in Belgium.

One day, for some reason or another, our Dutch language teacher told the class about an incident a friend of his had been involved in. His friend, much like our teacher, was something of a linguistic whiz, being very proficient in several languages. Shortly after the 6 Day War of 1967, he happened to be in a Muslim country that had participated in the war. He was detained at the airport on suspicion of being Jewish (and therefore obviously a spy) and this because of his proficiency with languages, thought to be a Jewish trait by the security forces of that country.

Since Belgium does not keep records of a person's religion, and the times were full of distrust anyway, he was taken to a back room and his circumcision status was checked. He wasn't cut, like any normal European male, and therefore let go by the authorities.

Aside from this being a somewhat daring conversation for school at the time, it did send a shiver of dread through many. Once again we were reminded that a person's circumcision status could determine his actual physical fate. And not in a good way either, but be a factor leading to incarceration, even in our modern times.

@agracier South Korea also practices routine circumcision, as do many Polynesian nations.

@agracier South Korea also practices routine circumcision, as do many Polynesian nations.

SK obviously learned this and imitated it from the US example, a modern import so to speak …

In the Philippines as well as here in Belgium, the Filipino women would talk most surely about their boys' status when they gather. Very openly and pro circumcision as well. Their kind of circumcision cannot reallly be compared with a standard circumcision. It is more like a dorsal slit where no skin tissue is being removed. usually done before puberty sets in. Not circumsised men are not considered as men when they are not circumsised.

I find it interesting that women may so casually discuss removal of bodily pieces from boys.

Because male circumcision is not a major surgical intervention and because it is a fairly common procedure, many men and women are quite comfortable discussing it in public. It also makes a lot of sense to allow the father to decide if his son is going to be circumcised.

In the United States, many infant boys have been circumcised because of their fathers' desire for anatomical resemblance. A boy is likely to get his foreskin removed if his father has previously been circumcised.