Munchausen

I'm curious. Do you think it's possible that some people with medfetishes would go so far to make them selves sick or hurt themselves to receive medical attention? I know there is a difference between a fetish and mental illness but for some people do you think the line is blurred?

If you read through the posts in this forum, you will see that there are certainly medfetters who have faked or exaggerated symptoms in order to be examined by a doctor (and I confess to having done so myself on occasion). girlneedsdoctor, you say that "some people may blur the line". What I have just referred to is, in my view, on the acceptable side of the line. Making yourself actually ill in order to undergo medical procedures would fall on the other side. That is the true Munchhausen syndrome.

Sounds Like Hypochondria To Me. I know several people who are always "sick" and going to the doctor. I on the other hand love med fet and medical play but I hardly ever go to the doctor. Though I Would enjoy having surgery and staying in the hospital for a few days

There's a big difference between hypochondria and muchausen syndrome, and then also with medfet. Medical fetish is a fetish, it's something that we derive sexual pleasure from no matter how much we intellectualize it and make it sophisticated (for lack of a better word). Hypochondria is a disorder in which people truly believe that they are sick and that they need the medical attention to cure them. They do not fake what is wrong, they may exagerate, but they never induce injury. Munchhausen sufferers need the attention of someone who is in the 'doctor' role. They want to be cared for and have that unconditional feeling of being taken care of. Some therapists theorize that this forms because of lack of attention as a child from important adult figures.

As to whether I think people on here have Munchhausen's...not all, probably only a small small percentage, but I still think that some of the people may. It depends on the individual and it cannot be easily quantified. Really, I think that you've got to look at it more from the standpoint of: do you want to have a sensual exam, or do you want to be cared for? I know for me it's a combination of both, it's not really a good system, I need to think of something better and then post again, sorry.

Perhaps some people feel this is the only way to get their fantasy met. It's kind of sad if that's the case, because there are people who need medical attention for real. I personally don't like going to doctors in real life...(Eeek, it's scary.) So I would never WANT to be sick...even when I do get sick I tend to avoid seeing a doctor for longer than necessary....so spank me. :😃

Being on the frontline in A&E, I have often met people whom I wonder whether all they say and describe is true. When faced with a patient who looks incredibly well, who states that they have excruciating pain 'down below' or are complaining of having extensive symptoms indicative of serious disease proceses, and then looking at the observations and findings and seeing no elevation in pulse or blood pressure, that they are not sweaty, clammy or even remotely look unwell, you have to doubt them, Inside. However, Pain is what the patient says it is, this is a subjective thing, one you cannot quantify... so, how do you deal with it? Well, you have to subject them to all the diagnostics, all the tests, effectively giving these patients what they seek. Yet, we do communicate (after a fashion) with other hospitals if the suspicions are great, or if they have alot of medical history, scars etc, but this takes along time, and i suppose from our naturally trusting nature, we are loathe to tar people with this brush...

A difficult question, and no specific answers, but as i said, i do have suspicions sometimes.

Good point nnnurse69, pain is a feeling that we form from an experience. I guess in effect, a papercut can feel like a gunshot wound to different people. And also like you said, hospitals do communicate, and it's probably getting easier everyday with the internet and everything being on computers now. So I guess the moral is that they will get caught and hopefully will get help that they need.

Worked with a man and his wife was always complaining of having pain and doctors needing to do surgeries. Do not know if this woman was starved for attention or wanted to be the center of attention. She was always having surgery. Either to have her muscles made stronger so her insides would not be hanging and causing her pain. Bladder stones/pains-removed the gallbladder. What would she be considered - a hypochondriac or munchausen. How many surgeries can you have where they cut you open and put you under before your body can't take it? This woman did not have any medfet fantasies either.

I don't think any of us would be able to make the distinction ILfemale, without specifically knowing this woman and the circumstances (I'm excluding the possibility that there is a therapist lurking on the board somewhere). If this woman knew that there was nothing wrong with her, or made her symptoms worse, then I'm pretty sure that is considered Munchhausen's. If she genuinely thought that there was something wrong with her, then I think it's more a case of hypochondria. I think it's difficult to tell the difference, especially without knowing the person, but either are possibilities.

As far as her really being in pain - she took the train to meet her hubby cause they were going to a play and I saw her skipping to the office door (outside when I used to smoke) to come inside to meet him. When your in a lot of pain and its real would you skip down the sidewalk?

Also something to be aware of ILfemale, Munchhausen's is (as far as I know) to get attention primarily from doctors specifically. There might be other motives, such as her wanting attention from her husband or family, or pity. Just because someone might exaggerate their symptoms, it isn't the same thing as Munchhausen's, but again, if anyone knows differently, then please chime in here.

Well I think there is a difference between exagerating your symptoms and flat out lying or causeing the symptoms yourelf.

Definitely girlneedsdoctor, but it is another possibility if we're just quantifying all of the reasons that someone would repeatedly go to the doctor. There's a big difference between Munchhausen's and exaggeration, but like I said before, unless someone here is a trained therapist or something of the sort, there's no way for us to really differentiate between the actions of the person and what is actually going on in their mind.

Girlneedsdoctor - this woman thought about these pains, etc. so much that I think she really believed she had/has them to the point of power of suggestion til she convinced others too with her power of the mind persuasion into getting others to believe she has these symptoms/pains, etc. He husband truly loved her and showed it so it was not due to lack of attention from him.

ILfemale,

If one is in a lot of pain and it is real and skipping down to the office door is their way of coping, even retreating to a childlike mental state for mere minutes to hide the fear, it is quite possible. I've had patients singing nursery rhymes during pelvic exams to focus away from what was going on. Without meeting the person in question and a very thorough psychiatric examination, it is impossible to properly answer your question and would be inappropriate to comment that it is one or the other when, in reality, it could be neither.

Actually I HAVE seen a case of this.. the person also had "Borderline Personality Disorder", which complicated things as well. She set up a situation where she would be "discovered" passed out. Gave herself insulin to induce hypoglycemia, didn't plan on getting caught.

Doc

some people with medfetishes would go so far to make them selves sick or hurt themselves to receive medical attention?

Maybe you can't fix stupid. Some injuries are born of ignorance or just plain reckless carelessness.

For professionals, even under the most ideal clinical conditions, seemingly simple procedures such as urethral catheterization present complications. The benefit outweighs the risk, and so while infections are predictable, so too is the treatment plan. Unwitting medfet amateurs may suffer serious consequences from their actions.

Lets see... I've seen self-inflicted to get attention and/or sympathy:

-Insulin to induce hypoglycemia

-Low-dose Maalox IV to induce "aluminum poisoning" on labs for a "mystery disease"

-Infections to get admitted to the hospital for sympathy and IV antibiotics

-Faked seizures to get admitted to the hospital for attention

-Faked psychiatric conditions to get admitted to psych to get out of exams in high school

It's a crazy world out there. The first two were the most serious cases of crazy. The third only moderately crazy. The last two may have been more malingering than true Munchausen's

When I was in medical school we had a mom who was putting things in her kid's IV to make him sick to get attention and sympathy for herself. Fortunately, that hospital had the ability to put a hidden camera in the room, caught her on tape, and the police took her out in handcuffs. Amazing how fast the kid got better once his mom was in jail.

Yeah, and they call US crazy!

Doc

How about the one who takes a bottle of pills -- immediately after calling 911. Seen that at least twice.

Yep - the thing is, though, when your body makes insulin, the "leftovers" - called the "C-peptide" stay around in the blood. (For all you biochem geeks out there, Insulin is synthesized as a long chain which folds and cross-links at two places, after which the bend in the middle part is cleaved off, leaving two cross-linked chains. The leftover part is C shaped.)

A non-diabetic with hypoglycemia and a low C-peptide is getting their insulin from somewhere outside their body..

When confronted they say the darnedest things, too. Seems they think they're too cleaver to ever get caught at their games. Gotcha!

Doc

About ILFEMALE'S case, what I'm interested to know is the husband's reaction to the woman's excessive surgeries? I mean, if your wife keeps having unnecessary surgeries, wouldn't you try to talk her out of it? or at least voice out your opinion?

As a psychologist that treats sexual disorders, I believe that most of the people involved in medical play do not have Munchausen's but simply have fetishes or associated paraphilias.

Flyfisher makes a few important distinctions about some differences of mental disorders, but not quite specific enough. Here are a few definitions, taken directly from the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Revision(otherwise known as DSM-IV) This is the bible of Psychiatry:

Factitious Disorder: is characterized by a person intentionally fabricating or inducing signs or symptoms of other illnesses solely to become identified as "ill" or as a patient (also known as Munchausen's Disorder). This is not limited to a person feigning symptoms but actually committing acts that would induce sickness (I have had many patients that do this for attention such as one who drank bleach to induce vomiting and create digestive problems warranting hospitalization. (See Munchausen by Proxy)

Munchausen by Proxy: this is a person committing acts to make another person ill for the purpose of a)gaining outside medical attention for that person, and b) taking on the role of caregiver to appear favorably to outsiders (eg: mother in Ohio who shaved her son's head regularly and fed him arsenic to make him sick and told him and others that he was dying from cancer.)

Somatization Disorder: Physical complaints that, after significant examination and testing, cannot be fully explained by any known general medical condition or the direct effects of a substance.

Malingering:the intentional production of false or grossly exaggerated physical or psychological symptoms motivated by external incentives" (American Psychiatric Association 2000). External incentives that may motivate a person to malinger symptoms include avoiding work, evading criminal prosecution, obtaining drugs, receiving financial compensation, avoiding military duty, or escaping other intolerable situations. Some of the most frequent complaints include gastrointestinal problems (mostly in women and children) and back pain as both are attributable to many conditions that are very difficult to diagnose.

Side Note: While the above diagnoses are valid, the criteria mentioned above are alone not sufficient to make a diagnosis of a person with these symptoms, as there many other criteria that need to accompany for the diagnosis.

Thanks for those clarifications Mike19001; much better than our speculating!

Thank you for taking the time to share that Mike.

I think the lines between fetish and mental illness are most definitely blurred sometimes-not solely in medfet though.

also i was reading about Münchhausen syndrome today and the way this one particular doctor said the way he tends to be able to identify them from hypochondriacs is if a blood test comes back clear, a hypochondriac is overwhelmingly happy as they genuinely believe they're ill, a Münchhausen sufferer, looks disappointed as if they have to then go back and create another illness/symptom