To Sir or Not To Sir

This applies to all of our interactions with others. I think I look at things a little differently than a lot of people, or maybe just a lot of vanilla people, so I thought I would make this a topic for discussion.

We as individuals are neither owed nor entitled to anything from others except to be left alone to live our lives by our own rules, unless we have established a bargain or agreement with them. (The reverse would be true for them of us)

Friends, Family, Lovers, Spouses, etc., we owe them nothing, they owe us nothing, except maybe some priority.

Caring, Compassion, Consideration, Respect, etc., are things we should give to everyone in our lives regardless of who they are to us, stranger or otherwise.

Friends, Family, etc. may get more of these or more often because of how WE feel about them, because in some way they have contributed to our lives in a positive manner. When they have contributed to our lives it was because THEY wanted to, that does not obligate us to them. WE obligate ourselves based on our own values. When we seek out friends, lovers, etc. we tend to look for or be attracted to people with similar values.

When someone says, your my friend, lover, etc., you should do this or act this way, what they are really saying is my values are right, yours are wrong or my values are more important than yours.

So to put this in context,..

Would I like for her to call me Sir?... Absolutely

Would it please me?... Very much so

But I would also like and be immensely pleased if she came over and let me have my way with her for a few days.

I am neither owed nor entitled to either, only she can make the decision on what of herself she wants to give to me.

Anyone care to comment about their perspective on what we owe each other or how that relates to a sub calling a Dom Sir? or a Domme Ma'am or Mistress?

@Master_Dorson

🤔🧐

To me it never goes any further than the fact those uptight, proper appellations feel sexless and impersonal, the verbal equivalent of a business suit. I want to be called something that feels more like nudity, or at least a hawaiian shirt, y'know?

To me it never goes any further than the fact those uptight, proper appellations feel sexless and impersonal, the verbal equivalent of a business suit. I want to be called something that feels more like nudity, or at least a hawaiian shirt, y'know?

@Somebody,

Interesting thoughts. I was a very, very part-time Dom or sub, currently only in fantasy, as the last time I had a partner was my ex-wife about 12 years ago when we Switched with each other, especially for enemas. I didn’t mind calling her what she wanted (usually Ma’am or Mistress) when she was Domme for an evening of giving me multiple big enemas mixed with our other kinks. And she’d call me things to accentuate my sub feelings and her Domme feelings while giving me very large, long enemas after dressing me literally head to toe in rubber suits, hoods and gloves, and thick rubber sneakers and cuffs. After that, just before showing me the size of my (first!) enema bag, she’d gag and gas mask me so my moans and groans were muffled and rubberized as I saw the bag size and got filled. Her preferred submissive names for me were things like “little rubber subbie enema girl“ and the like. Same when we switched, in reverse. But I wasn’t averse to her other humiliating distended belly sweaty rubber enema names for me either. As long as we were Domme and sub for the day and/or evening, the more kink she could force onto and into me and the more helpless and humiliated she could make me feel, the more exciting it was for both. Occasionally on her really motivated Domme days, she’d force me to stay in the hot sweaty humiliating rubber and sneaker bondage and hold the enemas all evening into the next morning. So @Somebody, what other names have you thought up or would prefer to be called? Thanks,

Eric

@Somebody

I personally could care less about "proper", having good manners is a good thing but being high and mighty or uptight is another.

If a sub is calling her Dom "Sir" simply because it is required, I agree with your sentiment here. If she is calling him "Sir" out of love and respect then I think it is appropriate. You wouldn't call someone "Hey You", that's just rude and lacking in manners.

I do like pet names for this reason. They are usually more personal and come from a place of caring and shared intimacy.

If you were in a Top/Bottom type relation ship, what would you prefer your bottom to call you?

Well it's funny, in most of my interactions… we just don't use names, ever. We know whom we're talking to, because whom ELSE would we be talking to? If it's in person, you face them, and if it's in a 1 on 1 chat that's obvious too. These days in group chats, you can ‘at' people to get their attention. Affectionate nicknames do pop up here and there. But I’ve never felt like the common ‘hey you’ was rude (I do recall hating being called ‘kid’ as a kid. Especially after I passed the 6-foot mark and had facial hair.)

But while I've had cute nicknames for subs ("Little One" comes up from time to time) I've never really been called anything special by them… except maybe Dad. That gets the heart all gushy. When a girl is like “Alright Pop I'll take a shower after swimming and let everyone see me naked." you feel like you've made a good contribution.

I think the big issue with most ‘manners’ stuff to me, what doesn't wow me, is that it's all tell, no show. I want to be SHOWN respect, not given a token, learned behavior like a bow or a napkin being folded a certain way or some nonsense like that. A burp is a function of your digestive system, it doesn't need any excusing. But holding a door for somebody? always cool.

I’ve been active in the Lifestyle for ten years.

When I first meet a Dom I know I greet them by their full name, Sir/Master John. Subsequently I will use the polite Sir honorific, “See you at the banquet, sir.” Subs that I am acquainted with are addressed by only their scene names, no modifiers. I do not address known slaves without explicit permission of their Master.

If I have a negotiated power exchange with a play partner we use agreed upon terms of address, typically calling me Sir, while I will use her scene name or a term on endearment.

One amusing side note, in social settings, it can be confusing when an in-service sub requests something for Sir without further defining who she means.

@Somebody

I never did hit that 6 foot mark, got shorted a few inches in that department. I never did mind being called kid, could be just because I don't remember it being use in the context of (you're too young to understand) type of statement.

I think we are both looking at the same thing, just from different perspectives. Is the respect genuine. Using a title "Sir", kneeling, bowing, etc. are all ways of showing respect. But if that respect isn't genuine the action is worthless.

If you have a persons respect it will be shown in many ways that aren't required or done out of propriety. If ‘Sir’ is used from a place of love and respect it will be genuine.

I agree, most times when interacting with others, you just talk to them no need to address them by 'title' or name. Even with subs when playing. I've never required a sub to address me by any particular name or 'title' except as part of a specific play scene, but when they do it without being required and you know it is genuine, it as you said "gets the heart all gushy" or at least makes your pride swell a bit.

So I think if/when the 'title' of Sir is used, the respect that is trying to be conveyed should be genuine. Otherwise don't bother.

Yes, that makes sense. Oh and I forgot to add, the very special kind of ‘Sir’ that Marcy uses for Peppermint Patty is adorable. Same for Mamimi calling Naota ‘Chief’ in FLCL. Little idiosyncrasies are what make life less bland, and it is very very bland this century compared to when I was growing up.

I am going to discuss this from the BDSM/kink side of things. For me it is a choice for the sub/slave as to whether or not they want to call me Sir, I do not make them call me that. Think about this, if they choose to call you that on there own accord, then that says something. It is a sign of trust and respect, and maybe a form of love involved too. It means the dominant/Master has earned it, not commanded it, and the sign of a leader. Many years ago a friend of mine now deceased educated me on a military term called "command presence." It is a military phrase that describes someone whose demeanor, nothing more than their mere presence, leaves no doubt they are someone to be respected. This also plays out in the vanilla world also but it depends on varying circumstances in everyday life. Think of this too, does a Dom/Master use common manners? Do they use please and thank you? How do they treat others whether or not in the realm of BDSM/kink? Beware of the person who runs at the mouth and proclaims they know it all.

There are many different levels of submission, but I think it‘s basic manners for a sub to call a dominant sir/ma’am at all times. I’ve never been a fan of the ultra casual everyone goes by first name culture. To me it is rude to call a dominant by first name, unless they insist on it. To this day, my friends’ parents are still Mr and Mrs. The way you would respect your elders should be the bare minimum respect to a dominant. I would also add asking permission to sit in or to leave their presence as baseline manners.

To this day, my friends’ parents are still Mr and Mrs. The way you would respect your elders should be the bare minimum respect to a dominant. I would also add asking permission to sit in or to leave their presence as baseline manners.

Respect towards adults is becoming extinct in todays culture. My folks insisted on showing respect to my elders - and especially to women. Nowadays, some take that kind of respect as an insult.

To this day, my friends’ parents are still Mr and Mrs. The way you would respect your elders should be the bare minimum respect to a dominant. I would also add asking permission to sit in or to leave their presence as baseline manners.

I have no problem with a sub using Mr. or Mrs. by way of being polite. I think any Dom who demands or expects Sir, Ma'am, Madam, Mistress etc. is just way to full of themselves. They are no better than the sub and deserve no more respect than the sub especially from the ones they don't even know.

Asking to sit or to leave, if you are talking a polite, “May I join you” or “Excuse me” when you leave, again just good manners. If you are expecting this just because you are a Dom, again way to full of yourself.

I have no problem with a sub using Mr. or Mrs. by way of being polite. I think any Dom who demands or expects Sir, Ma'am, Madam, Mistress etc. is just way to full of themselves. They are no better than the sub and deserve no more respect than the sub

Very strongly disagree. Being in a position of authority has nothing to do with being a better or worse person. This attitude has made our society very confused and disrespectful in general. If you are in a position of authority, you actually are entitled to a certain level of respect that those beneath you are not. The foreman on a job makes the decisions about who does what, when, and how. It doesn’t make him a better person, he is just the one in charge. And if I as a laborer don’t like when we are taking lunch, I don’t just get to change lunch time, I have to ask the foreman. It has nothing to do with who is better, smarter, or anything like that, it has to do with having an authority structure so that things get done. Because without the structure there’s chaos. And the foreman is not “full of himself” when he expects his crew to do what he says, he has the position and right to make those decisions and expect them to be followed.

Another false premise is that respect always has to be earned. If that was the case, “honor thy father and thy mother” would have some kind of exclusion clause on it about if they have earned it, but it doesn’t. My parents deserve my respect by virtue of just being my parents. Or just basic human respect, like saying “excuse me, sir” to a stranger you want to ask something from.

Bringing that to the D/s level, we for the most part choose our roles, anyway. If a Dom punishes a sub for forgetting to say “sir“ or “ma’am” it’s not arrogance, it’s part of the whole structure which has to include some kind of enforcement. And what’s the point of it if it’s not like that. You could then just say that any show of authority is arrogant, which would just erase the d/s altogether and make equal partners.

Another false premise is that respect always has to be earned. If that was the case, “honor thy father and thy mother” would have some kind of exclusion clause on it about if they have earned it, but it doesn’t. My parents deserve my respect by virtue of just being my parents. Or just basic human respect, like saying “excuse me, sir” to a stranger you want to ask something from.

From my upbringing and military background I’d say you have to respect the position, not necessarily the person. Personel respect is earned. For a dom/sub relationship to work I think the sub would have to respect the dom or not be in that relationship. For casual play, not necessarily. Same in life, lots of people in authority are unable to earn respect, but to a point they should be shown respect. Some just shouldn’t be in that position.

Don’t think I’m disagreeing, Just my take on this.

If you are in a position of authority, you actually are entitled to a certain level of respect that those beneath you are not.

IF you are in a position of authority, you still are not entitled to respect from anyone. What you are entitled to is “obedience to lawful orders” and a lack of open disrespect from those you have authority over. A lack of disrespect does not mean the same thing as respect.

Being former military I've heard the “respect the position/rank, if not the man” many times. It is completely wrong, a BS excuse to keep soldiers in line when there isn't time to have a “philosophical” discussion on the nature of rank, structure, order etc. It just perpetuates the arrogance of those in charge who don't understand the difference between respect and obedience or think they are entitled to something they are not. Respect and obedience are not the same thing and they are not mutually inclusive or exclusive.

Another false premise is that respect always has to be earned. If that was the case, “honor thy father and thy mother” would have some kind of exclusion clause on it about if they have earned it, but it doesn’t. My parents deserve my respect by virtue of just being my parents.

I personally would not respect or honor a man who molests his teenage daughter… Respect for parents is still earned by the parents actions of making sacrifices and doing their best to raise and care for a child properly and not abuse them.

Bringing that to the D/s level,…

First and foremost, simply being a Dom does not put you into that “position of authority”. A Dom does not have that authority unless and until the sub CONSENTS to giving it to him. Demanding or expecting anything from a sub who hasn't given her consent even in the smallest matters is still arrogance.

Even with that authority, subs still have limits that must be respected. If she for some reason has a limit of calling you “Sir” (not going to get into the weeds on possible reasons) that limit must be respected.

IF you are in a position of authority, you still are not entitled to respect from anyone. What you are entitled to is “obedience to lawful orders” and a lack of open disrespect from those you have authority over. A lack of disrespect does not mean the same thing as respect.

Well, I will agree to disagree. Respect is compulsory in some areas of life, like it or not, and there are PLENTY of people in positions of authority who I have complete disdain for, especially in the realm of government. Fortunately, I have no day to day dealing with them. If I go to court and dislike the judge, it is still in my best interest to say “your honor”, and the favor is not returned.

And if you are in a D/s situation with someone it presupposes you have gotten past the negotiation phase. And obviously if a hard limit is crossed, there is a withdrawal of consent and respect, and in my opinion, the whole thing is then over with, or at least you will need lots of time to restore things. If you’re married and that happens would be the only time I could see it not ending after that.

Well, I will agree to disagree.

Absolutely, and I respect your right to have your own opinion even if I don't respect or agree with that opinion.

If I go to court and dislike the judge, it is still in my best interest to say “your honor”, and the favor is not returned.

That's not respect, that is a forced recognition of a title and possibly an abuse of power on the judges part. It is a judges job to be fair and impartial whether you respect him or not.

And if you are in a D/s situation with someone it presupposes you have gotten past the negotiation phase.

This isn't true in many cases. A situation doesn't necessarily mean a relationship. If your at a club or even a friends house you don't automatically have authority over other subs simply because you are Dom and they are sub. Even if you are in a relationship of some nature, again using the title “Sir” may be a limit for a sub. The most obvious I can think of may be that a sub only calls her Dom “Sir” and maybe refers to other Doms as Mr. or Mrs.

Bottom line, particularly in D/s, consent and limits must be respected therefor nothing can be automatically expected or demanded.

If they are a strong dominant I may give them that courtesy of calling them Sir…if not then I call them whatever I feel like

IF you are in a position of authority, you still are not entitled to respect from anyone.

Agree! Many positions, such as in the military, courts, etc. require you respect the position, not necessarily the person in that position. Personal respect is earned.

I wouldn't say that I know it all from a BDSM standpoint, as I am still in the beginner stages of the scene, but here's how it's been explained to me. Tops/Dominants usually should have the honorific (Sir, Ma'am) as a respectful sign of their station in the BDSM world. It's common courtesy. Now, if they introduce themselves to you in a different manner, then follow along. A sub who is not tied to that particular Dominant does not have to go through all of the protocol-type behaviors, because that has not been negotiated and agreed upon.

What is negotiated between Dom/me and sub needs to be followed by both Dom/me and sub. It's mutual respect and their personal protocol. What occurs between non-relationship Dom/mes and subs should be general respect and civility, whether its a scene name or honorific.

I personally prefer to err on the side of caution and use either their direct name or honorific. I find people tend to look more favorably upon that than being rude or not calling someone what they prefer to be called.

What is negotiated between Dom/me and sub needs to be followed by both Dom/me and sub. It's mutual respect and their personal protocol. What occurs between non-relationship Dom/mes and subs should be general respect and civility, whether its a scene name or honorific.

@demure That is how I've understood fetish/kink relationships. It is between those involved to decide the rules of their engagement. But respect their decisions.

I personally prefer to err on the side of caution and use either their direct name or honorific. I find people tend to look more favorably upon that than being rude or not calling someone what they prefer to be called.

Erring never hurt to be respectful. Word of mouth can travel fast in the community if one does not follow the general rules. Do you want the reputation of not following the rules? Do you not want play partners in your future because you don't have the decency to be respectful?

Raised to address my elders and strangers as Ma'am or Sir as a form of respect, I continue to do so in my 70's and have no plans to change.

I would NOT automatically address a dominant - female, male, or other - simply because they considered themselves better than me.

For me its a matter of recognition and respect - I agreed to have her guide me in discipline and acknowledging that is very important to our dynamic.

My girlfriend and I have a DD arrangement, but outside of that context we have a normal loving relationship. Typically I will only address her as ma'am if she is acting in her role as my disciplinarian and I go to great lengths to try and recognize those moments. If I fail to, she will remind me. Sometimes I will just instinctively address her in that way if she is naturally leading in a normal situation. Idk why but I also like to refer to her in that way when we are cuddling.

I am a spankee rather than a sub but I am into serious, non-sexual, discipline style spanking rather than anything erotic. It follows that part of the experience is the power exchange. I have to respect the authority of the person who is punishing me - and they have to be credible. So, when being disciplined, I will always say "Sir" or "Ma'am" when replying to questions and carrying out the instructions I am given.