Transgenders: Pre-Op vs No-Op

The discussions here frequently allude to transwomen with penises. 'transgirl' relates agencies wanted transgenders with functioning penis, Others have posted about oral/anal sex with transwomen with penises. I surmise these transgenders are not contemplating genital surgery, as they are utilizing the male parts..I've heard the term 'no-op'? Where does such an individual fit in a spectrum from man to woman? Do you think they are really transgender, even if they have had other surgery (facial, breast, hip) and never dress like men?

First up- there's no such word as transgenders. They are transgender people.

A woman may choose to remain non op for a few reasons, the biggest being SRS costs $20,000 and up, considerably more for female to male. Other factors include- not being good candidates for surgery or MOST IMPORTANT- they do not feel that thier genitals define them!!!

If you agree that man to woman is a spectrum, what's the problem with believing that not everyone is on one end of the spectrum- that's just back to binary!

One certainly does not have to believe that owning a penis assumes they are going to use it.

A persons genitals ABOSLUTELY DO NOT DETERMINE THEIR GENDER.

I am a woman of trans experience, just went through my GRS surgery about 10 weeks ago. Being a transwoman doesn't necessarily mean you either male or female, but some are non binary or non confirming.

Look at it like the difference between a light switch (on/off) and a light dimmer. (On, off and anywhere in between)

Talking about my personal experience, I was and am, a woman regardless of what's in between my legs. However after receiving my surgery I feel much more happier and complete. Next to having a vulva now I'm equally happy to no longer have to see my old penis.

Having said that, there are quite a lot of (legal, mental and medical) requirements that one has to follow before being allowed to have surgery, which you can not get from one day to the next. Once you have reached the requirements than there is the cost involved. Yes some health insurance does cover surgery, but good luck trying to find a Dr. that accept the insurance. Most still have to pay upfront, and than get reimbursed from insurance, which isn't always the same amount as what you paid.

I am 3 years into my transition and the only reason I was able to have my surgery is because of some unknown lucky reason I received a loan offer, which I took. (The next 7 years I be paying for this)

I know, and have, female friends that are perfectly fine and happy with their penis, and I know some that are unhappy. I also understand that quite a lot of transwoman who work in the sexual entertainment industry, are not happy with their penis but need to retain it inorder to have an income. It also means they will not be able to constantly be on the correct hormone dose, as hormones, especially testosterone blockers, will affect the penis and testicles.

Erin.

PS, there are also health risks involved, there is a 1% change to get a fistula, which can kill you. 20% change of problems peeing, and some will not experience orgasm. Although the medical technology is advanced, changes of something going wrong become less, it's still an important decision maker in wether to have or not have surgery. In my personal case... I had to have surgery.

Hope it's not to long of a reply. Hugs.

A persons genitals ABOSLUTELY DO NOT DETERMINE THEIR GENDER.

I absolutely disagree. While there exist a few exceptions for known chromosomal abnormalities, the gender of an embryo IS determined at conception, and a person's gender is determined at birth.

The genitals that a person is born with DO determine gender, by all laws, statutes, and guidelines I have known for 60+ years. Those genitals are the external, macro manifestation of the "sex chromosomes" (XX for female, or XY for male) that are in virtually every cell in a person's body. A person born male will NEVER be able to get pregnant and gestate a baby, and a person born female will NEVER be able to produce sperm and fertilize a female. Regardless of any hormone therapy or surgery, those chromosomes will remain unchanged for the person's life.

As Susie suggests, a person may choose to assume the classic gender-defined roles of his/her civilization, or he may choose to assume different roles. To address bratwurst's question, the classic "He-She" or transvestite prostitute of Bugis Street fame in Singapore (and other places in Indonesia, Thailand, etc) are NOT transgender, but, in general, transvestite homosexuals. While they choose to dress and assume the outward appearance of women to attract other men, they use their still-intact genitals for sexual gratification in the same way as other homosexuals. The female role-playing could be described as acting or "performance art" in order to attract men for homosexual liaisons or prostitution purposes.

If a man wants to assume a female social role, it doesn't bother me too much any more, as long as he openly admits his true gender by birth. Whether in Singapore or San Francisco, I detest people who try to deceive a potential partner or customer. I resent current attempts to use fuzzy social paradigms to randomly assign gender (or lack thereof) on birth certificates. I also resent having to pay for "sexual reassignment" surgery through any tax-supported public health systems.

For those states that are considering other gender definitions on driver licenses and other ID credentials, I MIGHT support an ADDITIONAL - NOT replacement - gender identification block that might say/indicate something like "living as..."

intruder said

I absolutely disagree. While there exist a few exceptions for known chromosomal abnormalities, the gender of an embryo IS determined at conception, and a person's gender is determined at birth.

Genitals determine a person's SEX. How they want to march around town might determine their gender, of which there are two. The chromosomes determine sex. How you want to march around is a different consideration.

intruder said

The genitals that a person is born with DO determine gender, by all laws, statutes, and guidelines I have known for 60+ years.

you forgot AND SCIENCE

Even those with chromosomal abnormalities like Kleinfelters or other genetic diseases where there may be extra X chromosomes, if there is even one Y chromosome, the person is MALE.

Genitals determine a person's SEX. How they want to march around might determine their gender, of which there are two.

This is definitely a matter of semantics...

One of the primary definitions of "Gender" is "Sex" (Merriam-Webster). The 2 words are often used interchangeably, as in "transsexual" or "transgender". One or the other might be preferred by any person. In context, the intent of the biological determination of sex/gender is clear.

How you want to march around is a different consideration.

...and that is where I use the term "gender-defined roles".

In context, "role" may include dress, mannerisms, sexual preferences, etc; and may include body modification ranging from binding (e.g., breasts or penis/testicles), to hormone replacement, to surgery (e.g., breast enhancement or genital modification).

Here, "gender-defined roles" is where people make their choices. For a child, it may be simply whether a boy or girl wants to play with trucks or dolls, to dressing to look more like mom or dad, to associating with groups that generally limited to a single sex (e.g., Boy Scouts vs Girl Scouts). Regardless of the choices made, and how they are influenced by parents, peers, and others, that child's sex (male vs female) does NOT change.

At puberty, things admittedly get more complex. A person may not 'like' the fact that she is growing breasts or menstruating, or that his voice is getting deeper and he gets spontaneous erections. At [any time from] that point on, he may decide he does not want to conform to the traditional heterosexual norms described (perhaps formerly PREscribed) for a boy or girl by his/her society. STILL, the basic biological fact of XX vs XY chromosomes that determine that person's sex does NOT change.

...and on through life. A person may choose to live any lifestyle he can support, and assume the [traditional] roles of either gender. NOTHING changes the basic biological XX vs XY determinant.

The genitals that a person is born with DO determine gender, by all laws, statutes, and guidelines I have known for 60+ years.

Maybe in some middle eastern countries, but not in the vast majority. In most states, one can change their sex right down to birth certificate. If they are willing to give you a new birth certificate, does that not prove they were wrong in the ten or twenty seconds it took someone to determine your sex at birth?

In Canada ALL provinces allow to change your birth cert. Most enlightened countries do.

the gender of an embryo IS determined at conception, and a person's gender is determined at birth.

- Absolutely could not be wronger. A humans SEX is determined at conception. There gender is what their brain says they are, despite what genitals they possess. The SEX can be changed later. The gender cannot.

. . . . A humans SEX is determined at conception.

YES

.

There gender is what their brain says they are, despite what genitals they possess. The SEX can be changed later. The gender cannot.

It's the other way around. The sex is determined at conception and is immutable. Gender is how they decide to march around town--that is how they present themselves and act in society, and some people who say they are "gender fluid" (I hate that term) can't seem to make up their minds to accept what they truly are, and that seems to be more of being a fraud or having mental illness.

If the brain doesn't recognize the sex of ALL the other cells in the body, that appears to point in the direction of mental illness, not an error on the part of the physician recording the sex of the baby at birth.

You can change your name, you can change your gender but you cannot change your sex. NO amount of plastic surgery can change that.

Xs and Ys, I do not care. A transgender woman literally takes her life in her hands when she chooses to be herself. I think I can show her the respect of accepting who she says she is.

If a man wants to assume a female social role, it doesn't bother me too much any more, as long as he openly admits his true gender by birth. Whether in Singapore or San Francisco, I detest people who try to deceive a potential partner or customer. I resent current attempts to use fuzzy social paradigms to randomly assign gender (or lack thereof) on birth certificates. I also resent having to pay for "sexual reassignment" surgery through any tax-supported public health systems.

For those states that are considering other gender definitions on driver licenses and other ID credentials, I MIGHT support an ADDITIONAL - NOT replacement - gender identification block that might say/indicate something like "living as..."

Well.... yikes.

First - a male transvestite is a man who likes wearing women's clothes, and they are usually straight. (As Eddie Izzard says, most transvestites fancy girls). A woman in mans clothing is far more socially acceptable so the term is rarely applied to women.

Transgender- a person whose gender identification does not match their assigned sex. Transgender women ARE WOMEN FROM BIRTH and simply have mismatched genitalia.

I know several transgender women. If they have not had bottom surgery, they always tell a potential sexual partner. But anyone else? She doesnt owe you shit. She doesnt need to explain herself to you or anyone. Why do you care what her gender is listed as on her documentation? Why do you assume you have a right to know about a person's genitals? It doesnt effect your life at all if someone who was born with a vulva has his gender listed as a man or woman who happens to have a penis.

I also resent having to pay for "sexual reassignment" surgery through any tax-supported public health systems.

Sigh, sigh ... a typical go-to answer when something annoys a person, but they don't really have any cogent arguments to make. No matter how small and insignificant the cost in money is, this is one of those reasons that one hears far too often.

There are far more expensive, wasteful, unfair and destructive things that tax-money is used for. Not to mention immoral things.

And besides, as if this hasn't been discussed enough the last 10 years in almost every media world-wide, the US does not have a tax-supported public health system. It has a corporate, privately-run for profit health care system.

WhoLover said:

Transgender- a person whose gender identification does not match their assigned sex. Transgender women ARE WOMEN FROM BIRTH and simply have mismatched genitalia.

That is positively incorrect and brainless to believe it although the snowflake social justice warriors are having an easy time doing that.

There is NO SUCH THING as gender assignment at birth.

At birth, THEY TELL YOU WHAT SEX YOU ARE. If there are birth defects or other questions, they can easily do a DNA test and tell you what sex you are. After that if you decide to act like a man or present yourself as a man when you do not have a Y chromosome, something else got screwed up along the way.

If you have a Y chromosome, you are a male. You can have a number of X chromosomes with genetic deformities and diseases, but all you need is ONE Y TO MAKE YOU A MALE. You may have birth defects associated with it, but that is what you are. EVERY SINGLE CELL in a "transwoman" is MALE except for half the sperm cells. [Half the sperm cells are X and half are Y.]

If you don't want to live the way or present yourself in the usual manner of your sex, go ahead, deny what you are, play a game, be a fraud, have mental illness or other reasons for denying your actual sex. I don't care, but don't expect me to treat you as a woman or female if you have a penis and testicles (or had them cut off).

.

intruder said

I also resent having to pay for "sexual reassignment" surgery through any tax-supported public health systems.

I agree. Sexual reassignment surgery is nothing more than costly elective plastic surgery and those elective procedures should NOT be paid for out of public funds or medical insurance that my premiums fund.

That is positively incorrect and brainless to believe it although the snowflake social justice warriors are having an easy time doing that.

There is NO SUCH THING as gender assignment at birth.

...

.I agree. Sexual reassignment surgery is nothing more than costly elective plastic surgery and those elective procedures should NOT be paid for out of public funds or medical insurance that my premiums fund.

This is a horribly transphobic and bigoted position to take, and frankly very disappointing to hear it from a mod in a space on zity supposedly for talking about people who are transgender and sexuality.

Transgender people face bullying like this irl and have higher rates of both suicide and being the victims of murder. It is not a mental illness it is not choosing to be a certain way.

I do not know what it feels like to be trapped in the wrong body, and it is difficult to empathize from that place. However, I listen to my transgender friends, and trust that they know who they are as well as I know who I am. No one would willingly choose to go through what they've been through.

And if there are any transgender people still reading this thread, please know that not everyone on this site is like susie and intruder and I hope you stick around, you have allies.

It's not transphobic. I am stating facts. I am perfectly willing to work with trans people at work or have social or professional relationships with them when they come about. If they want to act in that way, it's OK with me. Just don't expect me to play the gender or gender fluid game.

While I have little to no regard for shrinks or their ability to convince or assist people to change their ways, a bit of "pharmaceutical assistance" may help if the people are interested.

This is a horribly transphobic and bigoted position to take, and frankly very disappointing to hear it from a mod in a space on zity supposedly for talking about people who are transgender and sexuality.

Transgender people face bullying like this irl and have higher rates of both suicide and being the victims of murder. It is not a mental illness it is not choosing to be a certain way.

. . .

And if there are any transgender people still reading this thread, please know that not everyone on this site is like susie and intruder and I hope you stick around, you have allies.

First of all, you choose to read part of a post and make unsupported generalizations from words taken out of context. You completely ignored the part where I said:

A person may choose to live any lifestyle he can support, and assume the [traditional] roles of either gender. NOTHING changes the basic biological XX vs XY determinant.

In other, simpler words, I don't care how anyone acts, as long as it's in a civil manner.

Second, I cannot fathom how you consider a discussion here as "bullying". I have not directed any threat or derogatory comment toward ANY person here or otherwise.

Third, I have to say that this is the first time I have EVER seen or heard the word "transphobic". I suppose it will become yet another derogatory, inaccurate buzzword used by some people to describe others who don't happen to share their opinions. Who is really the "bully" here?

WhoLover said

Transgender people face bullying like this irl and have higher rates of both suicide and being the victims of murder. It is not a mental illness it is not choosing to be a certain way.

This is not bullying, it is stating the facts.

The SUICIDE rate of transgender people is TEN TIMES that of the general population and their being pre-op or post op makes NO DIFFERENCE in the suicide rates.

Suicide attempts are alarmingly common among transgender individuals such as Lampe; 41% try to kill themselves at some point in their lives, compared with 4.6% of the general public. The numbers come from a study by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and the Williams Institute, which analyzed results from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey.

It isn't easy being transgender and I don't envy their situation.

.

See this:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/

and this:

The MURDER rate of trans people is LOWER than the general population

https://medium.com/athena-talks/trans-murder-rates-the-data-120b60b19cb4

.

If you've never heard the word transphobic, you live a sheltered life. It's been around long enough to be in the OED.

I'm not doing the dueling experts thing.

If you refuse to use people's preferred pronouns and/or use their deadname, you're just being an ass hole. It costs you nothing.

Being hurtful because you think you're entitled to treat people however you want, regardless of it being hurtful is just being a jerk. It's not clever or smart or insightful or correct.

Oh, and calling out problematic attitudes and words is not the same thing as being a bully. Insisting on calling people whatever you want and creating a hostile environment is being a bully.

WL out.

On the lighter side....

In the news today. A Canadian Male LEGALLY changed his gender to female to lower his insurance rates!! Another reason why people change their gender identity.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/07/30/canadian-man-legally-lists-gender-as-female-to-get-cheaper-car-insurance-report.html

O n the lighter side....

In the news today. A Canadian Male changed his gender ago female to lower his insurance rates!! Another reason to people change their gender identity.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/07/30/canadian-man-legally-lists-gender-as-female-to-get-cheaper-car-insurance-report.html

That would fall into the category of FRAUD that I mentioned in two earlier posts.

It's just one more reason not to play along with their game.

In my younger years I might have resented or looked down on transgender. After being on zity it has made me realize that people come in all flavors and I really don't have a problem if someone is born male but their wires got crossed and they identify as female or vice versa. In earlier generations they would have been reviled and sometimes assaulted and even killed. I am taking a live and let live approach. I don't care what chromosomes they have or don't have. I identify as male, some don't. It works the same way for me with gay and lesbians. I have come to understand them, thanks again to zity and it has made me a better person. I have a nephew that is gay and his dad who is my brother cannot deal with it. He won't even attend his wedding to his long time partner. My brother is very religious and can just not accept it. His loss. The one problem I do have with the whole thing is these high schools redoing all the record books for girls when a male that identifies as female goes out for a sport and breaks all the records.That doesn't make sense to me.

Moppys Jalopy said

The one problem I do have with the whole thing is these high schools redoing all the record books for girls when a male that identifies as female goes out for a sport and breaks all the records.That doesn't make sense to me.

That is absolutely a BIG problem.

Men masquerading as women should NOT be permitted to compete against women in sporting events.

Even the Olympics got fucked up on this one.

Should Randy Couture say he is a woman so he can fight Ronda Rousey? He would beat the shit out of her.

I remember well years ago the personal dilemma we faced when my husband and I were invited to attend the wedding of a friend who had divorced a spouse of many years (whom we were also friends with) in order to marry a marry a much younger same sex partner. In the end we decided to attend and thereby giving our best wishes to the new life they were building. For us it came down to caring about the person vs whatever sexual orientation and identity was being chosen. Looking back on it now they have been married for several years and seem to be doing well and I am glad we made the choice we did regardless of the fact that we personally value our own heterosexual marriage. I am of the opinion that:

- All of us, regardless of sexual identity, carry what could be termed "male" or "female" emotional characteristics to varying degrees. Granted life experiences likely do much to condition how one chooses to identify. Stereotypes of any sort can hurt the process of getting to know and appreciate someone's personally.

- One's physical characteristics are what a person is born with. Those include a birth gender. One can change much about the physical either cosmetically or surgically if the motivation, work, and money are there to accomplish those changes. I figure if those changes are your priority, please feel free to do that (just don't ask me to pay for it in the case of surgery)! Just remember that a surgical option can be expensive, difficult and hard to reverse if you choose it.

-People are people and are free to specify the title they wish to live by and should be honored in that. I was a Miss for a time in life, became a Mrs. and I remember a discussion with a good friend who was training her children in a respectful attitude toward adults. She did not want them calling me by my first name as they would refer to a same age friend. We decided I could live with "Miss ____ " followed by my first name - a degree of respect with a degree of closeness in first name. It worked well for all involved. Professionally I became Mrs. ____ followed my first letter of my last name simply because my last name is difficult to say and more difficult to spell. Ok by me and better than murdering my last name every time. (Last name became an extra credit spelling word when I taught!) When in doubt, simply ask the other person how they would prefer to be referred to and use it - EASY!

- There are many gray areas in this gender name battle. RELAX knowing the politically correct lingo is likely to change many times and that people may use a wrong term out of their own lack of knowledge. Give them the benefit of the doubt as I do every time I have had to help someone know how to pronounce my last name. Some people need the pronunciation lesson more than once even. I choose to not take that as a direct personal attack and actually appreciate the courtesy of being asked when people are unsure of how to say it. Find an easy non confrontational way to state things about your name or sexual identity. People on both sides have the right to be treated with respect.

I'm fairly traditional in my ways, but I am learning - please bear with me and help me kindly in this gender name battle.

If you've never heard the word transphobic, you live a sheltered life. It's been around long enough to be in the OED.

. . .

If you refuse to use people's preferred pronouns and/or use their deadname, you're just being an ass hole. It costs you nothing.

Being hurtful because you think you're entitled to treat people however you want, regardless of it being hurtful is just being a jerk. It's not clever or smart or insightful or correct.

Oh, and calling out problematic attitudes and words is not the same thing as being a bully. Insisting on calling people whatever you want and creating a hostile environment is being a bully.

I guess I've been too sheltered to read the OED since 2013, when the word was added. How many other words were added in those 5 years, which are NOT in general use among the majority of the population?

Again, you make the erroneous and baseless assumptions, and use the derogatory terms to describe other people here. Neither Susie nor I (nor anyone else I can recall) have used any such terms, nor have we ever indicated we would "refuse to use people's preferred pronouns and/or use their deadname" (apparently another word invented around 2014). I treat my wife's 'nonbinary' colleague with as much respect as anyone else she works with.

Once again, who has the "problematic attitudes" here? How have I or anyone else created a "hostile environment" by merely stating facts and expressing general opinions?

I am not willing to debate this I am simply going to pose some real life situations that transgender people have post surgery.

Which public restroom does a post surgical "female" use? Does "she" use the female facilities because that is the genitals that she has or is "she" supposed to use the male facilities because "she" used to have male genitals? What if anything would a man think if an obviously female person came out of one of the stalls? Does it matter if "she" still has a penis if "she" also has enlarged breasts and dresses in female clothing ie dresses? If "she" uses the female facilities and has not changed the documentation can "she" can have legal difficulties? Even if "she" has changed all the legal documentation "she" can have legal difficulties when brought up to a court system that believes as Susie believes that XY means you are always male. Or is society going to say that they can not use public facilities unless they are unisex? (That is discrimination)

What about those who are hermaphrodites? They have both sex genitals and have frequently been gender assigned by either parents or doctors at or near birth. What if they got it wrong and picked the opposite of what the person's personality? Hermaphrodites can have 47 sets of chromosomes meaning they have both XX and XY chromosomes.

Some medications produce a side effect of gynecomastia or enlarged breast tissue in males. Some of these develop breast of a considerable size. While this condition is not necessarily permanent it can be. Does this mean that these people are transgender if the side effect is permanent?

These are only some of the problems these people can face on top of family and friends scorn. While I have no argument with anyone's choices once they are of legal age I do have a problem with these choices for anyone younger. This includes those looking for genital changes of any kind including breast implants for teenage girls. If you restrict choices until after legal age you eliminate the problem of males competing in female sports until later in college. But you still have those females who petition to compete in traditionally male sports.

Just a few thoughts on the subject. I'm sure there are many more.