Fag, Dyke, Queer, and all the rest.

I just read a necropost about a guy who calls himself fag. As a card carrying, and flag waving member of the queer community, I'd like to point out a MASSIVE double standard that has caused a lot of grief. Gotten people beaten up, or worse. I will not tread on that dreadful phrase 'politically correct'.

Is queer still a bad word? We are now collectively (even by heterosexuals) called the queer community, and it's alright. We call each other queers, and it's all right. If somebody says 'Look at those queers' it's NOT alright. Maybe we should make up our minds. When in doubt, don't. The last thing a gay person hears before getting punched in the face is 'Queer!'

When I'm with my friends, we're a bunch of dykes. You can't call us that. Same with 'I've got ten fags coming over tonite', if a straight person said fag, they would get jumped all over.

We, the queer community, caused this, and I'm terribly sorry. It causes confusion, and offence, sometimes if it wasn't on purpose.

If you're unsure, use 'gay'.

It's plain stupid.

There's queer, the N word and many others which seem to be just fine when spoken by those of that ilk but not by others. Ever see the Cartoon Network show "The Boondocks?" The N word is spoken 50 times in every half hour show.

IT'S HYPOCRISY. If a word is objectionable, then NOBODY gets to use it -- even those in that group.

LGBTQ+ seems just fine for CHILDREN and TODDLERS 3-7 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKfCX0ttiX0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v6DFSzLnl8

Don't ask me why

I agree. How are we supposed to get all pissed off when one person uses these words, and not another?

On behalf of queers all over I apologize.

I am sick and tired of double standards in free speech, whether that be sex, sexual orientation or race. If it's OK for some, it should be OK for ALL!, and vice versa! As for political correctness, I know of nothing in any society which holds that everyone has the unalienable right to go through life and never be offended by something or someone. The same event or statement may be fine for the first 1000 to see or hear it, and totally offend # 1001. Does that mean it should be banned? Consider this: there can be no progress in human society without change, and changes tend to offend those who cling to the status quo. Would everyone who reads this raise their hands if they would be willing to go back to throwing rocks a wild animals to kill them, then eat the meat raw? Seriously, open debate and differences of opinion are the tools of progress in a free society, and TOLERANCE of those with differing opinions keep life amicable!

. . . .Would everyone who reads this raise their hands if they would be willing to go back to throwing rocks a wild animals to kill them, then eat the meat raw? . . . .

Clearly, that has nothing to do with changes in society. What you describe is changes in what would actually be technology.

With regard to the rest of your post, I agree for the most part. What ever happened to sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me? If you don't like what someone says, IGNORE IT.

So, if I use the N word, doesn't EVERYONE immediately say in their own minds the word nigger? So why not just say nigger. Hint, using the phrase "the N word" isn't fooling anyone. If I say queer is it really so horrible? Maybe it's really how I say it. If I were to say, "Bob and Bill are a couple of queers in love" all I've really done is acknowledge a strong emotion between 2 people. However, if I say, "Bob and Bill are a couple of damn queers in love" I have now cast aspersions on Bob and Bill.

I HATE, (yes, with capital letters) all politically correct talk. Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you offend someone they likely won't want to be your friend. Well, guess what, there are a lot of people I don't care to have as friends and even more who would prefer not to have me as their friend. BTW, my SIL is an Eddie Murphy lookalike and I'm as white as white can be. We've used the word nigger in conversations with neither of us being surprised or offended. If someone were to refer a person they see on the street as "that old, fat white guy" am I allowed to be offended and have that term stricken from the English language. You know, I am an old, fat white guy and I don't like it when someone actually calls me that.

Thus, for all the queers, fags, dykes, and otherwise seriously gay people out there, if I like you, I like you. If I don't, I don't. And, how I reference your sexual preference plays no part in that decision whatsoever.

So, if I use the N word, doesn't EVERYONE immediately say in their own minds the word nigger? So why not just say nigger. Hint, using the phrase "the N word" isn't fooling anyone. If I say queer is it really so horrible? Maybe it's really how I say it. If I were to say, "Bob and Bill are a couple of queers in love" all I've really done is acknowledge a strong emotion between 2 people. However, if I say, "Bob and Bill are a couple of damn queers in love" I have now cast aspersions on Bob and Bill.

I HATE, (yes, with capital letters) all politically correct talk. Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you offend someone they likely won't want to be your friend. Well, guess what, there are a lot of people I don't care to have as friends and even more who would prefer not to have me as their friend. BTW, my SIL is an Eddie Murphy lookalike and I'm as white as white can be. We've used the word nigger in conversations with neither of us being surprised or offended. If someone were to refer a person they see on the street as "that old, fat white guy" am I allowed to be offended and have that term stricken from the English language. You know, I am an old, fat white guy and I don't like it when someone actually calls me that.

Thus, for all the queers, fags, dykes, and otherwise seriously gay people out there, if I like you, I like you. If I don't, I don't. And, how I reference your sexual preference plays no part in that decision whatsoever.

.

Of ocourse you are right Arnold. The same can be said for the F word. Everyone knows and says fuck to themself. It's the same with the N word. Everyone knows the person saying it means nigger. It that's what they mean, why not say it? Why are they making me say fuck or nigger in my head when that's what they mean?

I'm a strong opponent of the mentality "We can call us this, but You can't call us this." It makes no sense. I had this conversation with my aunt some years ago about using ethnic stereotypes about us, which we object to others using.

There are those who say that by people using a dorogatory term about themselves, it takes the offense out of the term. To some extent, that's true; "queer" is an example of that, in most cases. But it's a dangerous path for both the group to whom the term applies and to the rest of society using that term.

I think it's the intent behind the word, whatever it may be, rather than the word itself which is the issue. If someone is using a word to attack or degrade or belittle someone else, then it's that intention which is the problem, rather than the vector they choose to use.

If I call myself something - lesbian oriented - or a friend of mine uses the same word about me, that's very different to a bunch of guys using it as they drive by myself and my girlfriend in the street.

It's impossible to keep up with what's cool or not with the words these days, and who makes these rules anyway, but we all know how we're using those words - as descriptions, insults or terms of endearment - and so do the people at the receiving end.

I'm not going to lie, I do it to fuck with people sometimes! Just pretend to be offended for 30 seconds and then laugh, and straight people (especially the ones very conscious of being PC) get very flustered, trying to figure out if it's right or wrong.

Way back in the late 60s I worked in a shipyard where we built submarines. If anyone can imagine how cramped it is being on a sub just think of trying to wire up the electronic equipment with pipefitters and others working in the same area. We had a queer in the electronics shop who used to joke about being intertwined in the wiring under the radios and if he needed more room he just said in his best effeminate voice "What a lovely place for a queer". Suddenly he would have all the room he needed. He was queer, we all knew he was in the electronics shop and joked about it. No one belittled him and we did just fine before the days of PC.

Coming forward to the year 2000 I was starting a new job in an undersea fiber electronics manufacturing plant. The guy I was replacing because he was moving up to an engineering tech job was queer. He was known by all the other workers, male and female as Queer Bob. So that PC crap didn't have too much effect on our real working relationships.

A fag was a cigarette when I was in high school.

If you don't like what someone says, IGNORE IT.

The wisest advice I've seen here

I do not, and will not, use the word "queer." I am gay I just don't like the queer.

I do not, and will not, use the word "queer." I am gay I just don't like the queer.

The meaning and the intensity and connotations linked to the use of certain words is always in flux and changing. Queer used to be normal usage for describing a homosexual at the beginning of the 20th century, till around WWII. It was used like the word gay is now. Then bit by bit starting after WWII, the term gay came to be used more prevalently.

And now we are back to seeing meanings and usage morphing back to an old term. There is nothing new or odd about that, it happens with all kinds of words.

But when the transition hasn't yet fully occurred, that is when confusion is rife and people get confused and unsure what to use.

I do not, and will not, use the word "queer." I am gay I just don't like the queer.

Well, it looks like the LBGTQ+RSTUVWXYZ community likes the word Queer.

I have plenty of friends of both sexes who are homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual.

Yes, I like the REAL words to describe what we are. None of this politically correct shit saying we're "gay", "lesbian", "bi" or other politically correct garbage term to disguise or make what we are more palatable to ourselves or others.

I am heteroflexible and if people wanted to call me "bi" (actually the term is BISEXUAL--I am not afraid of the word or being called that) I know what I am and I don't care one bit.

I don't understand the need to subvert the meaning of words that had no sexual meaning. Is it due to being ashamed of the real term? When I was in HS, a looooong time ago queer was something strange and fag was an old name for a cigarette as in "while you've a Lucifer to light your fag". A Lucifer is a scratch anywhere kitchen match invented in 1827 that could be lighted by rubbing across the ass of your pants or occasionally by scratching together inside your pants pocket. So we didn't have queers or fags, we had homos which was short for homosexual. I didn't know what girls with that inclination would be called but I assumed the term homosexual would be equally appropriate. We all knew girls didn't masturbate because they told us they didn't if anyone had the balls to ask.

I don't understand the need to subvert the meaning of words that had no sexual meaning. Is it due to being ashamed of the real term? k.

There is no actual need to subvert or rather change the meaning of words. It simply happens naturally because languages evolve and change by nature, just as society changes and evolves. No one mandates a change in how words are defined, that happens by consensus over time, bit by bit, sort of like a virus spreading in a given population.

What incenses some people nowadays, is often the speed with which words change meaning. They can't always keep up. Which is not that surprising given the speed with which communications technology has developed and the vast numbers of people which it can reach.

And since society is also constantly evolving and changing, words are needed to express those changes more accurately. Either new words come into existence - which seems to be a more difficult process - or else people start to use existing words and giving them a slightly different meaning. If this happens often enough, then words really do assume quite different meanings than originally.

roscoe said

I don't understand the need to subvert the meaning of words that had no sexual meaning. Is it due to being ashamed of the real term?

I agree.

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Agracier said

There is no actual need to subvert or rather change the meaning of words. It simply happens naturally because languages evolve and change by nature, just as society changes and evolves. No one mandates a change in how words are defined, that happens by consensus over time, bit by bit, sort of like a virus spreading in a given population.

What incenses some people nowadays, is often the speed with which words change meaning. They can't always keep up. Which is not that surprising given the speed with which communications technology has developed and the vast numbers of people which it can reach.

And since society is also constantly evolving and changing, words are needed to express those changes more accurately. Either new words come into existence - which seems to be a more difficult process - or else people start to use existing words and giving them a slightly different meaning. If this happens often enough, then words really do assume quite different meanings than originally.

You and I have discussed this in the forum and also in PMs a few years ago as I recall.

Language definitely becomes subverted and corrupted and should NOT change the meaning or add meanings to words. It really has nothing to do with evolution. People are LAZY and don't want to expend effort to create a new word to describe things. Why bastardize a perfectly good word by giving it a meaning that has nothing to do with the meaning the word had when it was created. Worse yet, the "evolution", actually corruption of the language has caused some words to have completely opposite meaning to their original one.

I am bisexual and engage in homosexual activity so read the following knowing that I include myself here:

If Homosexuals don't like or are afraid of that word (or any other group that doesn't like the real word that describes them), make a new word and see if it catches on. WHY do Homosexuals need a euphemism to describe their orientation?????

For some reason Bisexuals have not seen the need to make a euphemism for their orientation. Likewise for Heterosexuals.

I am pretty certain I know the answer and they don't want to admit it.

I suppose that I could "retaliate" by continuing to use words some people don't like; as long as the LGBTQ+BR549 crowd continues to label me a "homophobe" simply because I don't support many pieces of their radical agenda. I have no fear of homosexuals as a group. Why label me that way?

WHY do Homosexuals need a euphemism to describe their orientation?????.

Historically, euphemisms were used because of historical laws that were enacted to restrict and punish homosexual sexual acts and homosexual modes of activity and being. There were times - not that long ago, in my lifetime even - when homosexuals were liable to very cruel punishments including lengthy jail times, incarcerations in mental institutions and even forced (chemical or otherwise) castration. That does tend to make those so targeted very very wary. This especially in the US and UK where historically legislation against homosexuality has been very severe.

Even now, it is so obvious that large parts of the (US) population do still not accept this and have definitely not come to terms with the legalisation of homosexuality. It is not yet wise to admit to such a sexual orientation in many areas of life and in many geographical locations.

Some people (and groups) apparently see red and cannot contain their rage and hate when confronted with the idea of homosexuality itself. One might even speak of a retrograde movement at the moment, with a roll-back of civil rights.

In any case, with such attitudes, it is no wonder that homosexuals use coded words and phrases. First off to hide their orientation from disapproving eyes and also to give it a more positive connotation by using less threatening words.

Words have gradations of meaning and intensity. Depending on one's beliefs and inclinations, it is often easy to deduce a person's belief simply by analysing which particular words they use to denote something.

If Homosexuals don't like or are afraid of that word (or any other group that doesn't like the real word that describes them), make a new word and see if it catches on. WHY do Homosexuals need a euphemism to describe their orientation?????

Such thinking presupposes that homosexuals are united in some sort of group or organisation. As if there is some sort of controlling body that can order or guide what all homosexuals do. It's not that far removed from conspiracy thinking, as if homosexuals as a group have a united and planned agenda.

In reality, they are as united in purpose as the members of the proverbial Chinese fire brigade. They are simply a diverse and varied group of people whose only common characteristic is their sexual leaning. Otherwise they are as varied as office workers or whatever other category of people chosen.

There is no organization directing homosexuals what to say or do or which words to use. Just as there is no organisation that controls and defines how words in English are to be used.

The use of words, be they related to homosexuality or anything else, develops spontaneously and unconsciously. Especially when a language is spoken by hundreds of millions of people. There is no way at all of regimenting so many people's language use, no way of controlling it and keeping it within defined bounds. Individuals will always go their own ways and come up with new words or new twists and turns in using existing words. If this didn't happen with every language, then we'd all still be speaking whatever proto-language was developed so many tens of thousands of years ago. That alone is proof that the natural condition of language is constant change.

In any case, with such attitudes, it is no wonder that homosexuals use coded words and phrases. First off to hide their orientation from disapproving eyes and also to give it a more positive connotation by using less threatening words.

Somebody should tell them the secret is out of the bag.

People know what the words mean. 😁 😁 😁

Somebody should tell them the secret is out of the bag.

People know what the words mean. 😁 😁 😁

And because people - disapproving people - know the meaning of code words, that is why the code words constantly change. Think of it like an intelligence operation during wartime. Once the code is cracked by the enemy, it is time to move on to a new and different code.

That is also why new words are never created for such things as a 'sexual underground'. A completely new word would be so obviously something new and out of the ordinary as to draw far too much attention to itself. That is why innocent, innocuous everyday words are used as code but given a slightly different meaning amongst those in the know. And once too many 'normal' are in the know, it is time to change. That is why the code words are always drifting and changing.

I agree with Joanne here, I think it's much more about the intent of the word being used. When the word is used in a derogatory manner, then it objectifies the individual or the group that's being targeted. Words like nigger, dyke, fag, homo, queer, spic, cracker, etc. dehumanize individuals/groups, and this is always the first step prior violence toward an individual or group. So if queer is the last word heard before getting clocked by some ignorant fuck, it made it easier for that ass to do so because he didn't see the man: the humanity in front of him. Words like nigger dehumanized Black folks and made it easier to enslave, whip, lynch and segregate. Queer and fag are used prior to violence toward folks like Matthew Shepard who was beaten and tortured and left to die. So when groups reclaim a word like nigger, queer, slut, and fag they in essence are putting the humanity back in the word so that others can see the people for who they are, a person. and not some ignorant label that was used to justify mistreatment and violence. Again, it's all about the intent, context, and dialog.

Word to the wise when people are calling you things like Queer, Dyke, and Fagot you are not welcome there just leave, Don't start mouthing off. Just get out of there and never go back. Things are just starting to get bad. It is not someplace you want to be. Go someplace else. There are lots of places to go and things to do where you will be accepted.

As far as owning a word goes. If it's negative why are you using it? I don't go around calling my friends Homo insert name or Gearbox insert name I like them. I just call them insert name and insert name.